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[Halcyon]

The problem lies in the assumption that every cloning facility would be regulated by concord...
How would that possibly be achieved?

[Pieter Tuulinen]

My point is simply that concord lack omnipotence. There are loopholes etc.

My point is that there simply are NOT. Anywhere. The only places Concord don't enforce their rules are where they have decided not to set any. So long as your ability to destroy a Concord ship changes depending on how they enforce the rules on attacking Concord ships (according to system security level) you cannot EVER claim to be unchained

I'm not trying to be an ass here, but to say that not paying the fee paid directly to a subsidiary of Concord stands in for a reasoned decision to switch off all your own sov beacons is kind of silly. It's an eviction. The truth is that Concord is your landlord. They let you rent space that THEY own.

The only people who get to break the clone laws, that I've seen, seem to be Nation who use a completely different technology. If you use capsules, then you are subject to Concord legislation as much as you might want to pretend otherwise. Out of capsule, it looks like you can do what you want - but only because THAT uses so-called 'Soft Clone' technology, where the mindstate is read from a living body.

As for criminal faction capsuleers... Well... Since Concord doesn't terminate pilots with terrible Concord standing, or with very high Sansha, Gurista, Serpentis etc standings, why do we think they wouldn't let those people have their own capsuleers?

[Pieter Tuulinen]

The problem lies in the assumption that every cloning facility would be regulated by concord...
How would that possibly be achieved?

The transmission of a mindstate from a capsule depends utterly on the Neocom system and the Capsule technology. Concord controls capsule technology.

So, you can clone empty bodies all day, I guess, just not put mindstates in them?

[Halcyon]

I don't see how you're claiming that concord "owns" the space. If Concord had the resources to effectively and enforcibly own a portion of space greater than that claimed by the four empires, they'd shut things down. There'd be no wars because Concord could hold everyone at gunpoint. At best they control the way the infrastructure operates and lend their expertise based on your prompt payment.

[Halcyon]

"0.0 space, sometimes referred to as null-sec, are lawless EVE regions outside of CONCORD control."

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/0.0

I've underlined the relevant bit

[Lyn Farel]

The problem lies in the assumption that every cloning facility would be regulated by concord...
How would that possibly be achieved?

Re-read my message : we all know it is regulated by other entities for NPC, starting with pirate organizations. For freelance capsuleers, we pass through CONCORD regulations, period, or otherwise we wouldn't have to clone everytime at an SCC medical bay.

Unless we don't ? Can that be argued ? I don't know... :/

My point is simply that concord lack omnipotence. There are loopholes etc.

My point is that there simply are NOT. Anywhere. The only places Concord don't enforce their rules are where they have decided not to set any. So long as your ability to destroy a Concord ship changes depending on how they enforce the rules on attacking Concord ships (according to system security level) you cannot EVER claim to be unchained

I'm not trying to be an ass here, but to say that not paying the fee paid directly to a subsidiary of Concord stands in for a reasoned decision to switch off all your own sov beacons is kind of silly. It's an eviction. The truth is that Concord is your landlord. They let you rent space that THEY own.

The only people who get to break the clone laws, that I've seen, seem to be Nation who use a completely different technology. If you use capsules, then you are subject to Concord legislation as much as you might want to pretend otherwise. Out of capsule, it looks like you can do what you want - but only because THAT uses so-called 'Soft Clone' technology, where the mindstate is read from a living body.

As for criminal faction capsuleers... Well... Since Concord doesn't terminate pilots with terrible Concord standing, or with very high Sansha, Gurista, Serpentis etc standings, why do we think they wouldn't let those people have their own capsuleers?

I think there is a clear distinction between freelance capsuleers (us) and faction capsuleers (as we know they exist). The latter probably are sheltered and given what they need by their factions that probably have even tighter leashes. The former, us, are bound by CONCORD. CONCORD doesn't care for freelance capsuleers to claim to be pirate loyalists. What those only do is murdering other freelance capsuleers in a world where they interact only with freelance capsuleers...

They are just kept apart in lower sec status not to cause too much trouble in high sec space towards their fellow freelance capsuleers.

[Silas Vitalia]

"0.0 space, sometimes referred to as null-sec, are lawless EVE regions outside of CONCORD control."

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/0.0

I've underlined the relevant bit

Then why do capsuleers pay billions of isk to concord for little flags?

[Silas Vitalia]

I think there is a clear distinction between freelance capsuleers (us) and faction capsuleers (as we know they exist). The latter probably are sheltered and given what they need by their factions that probably have even tighter leashes. The former, us, are bound by CONCORD. CONCORD doesn't care for freelance capsuleers to claim to be pirate loyalists. What those only do is murdering other freelance capsuleers in a world where they interact only with freelance capsuleers...

They are just kept apart in lower sec status not to cause too much trouble in high sec space towards their fellow freelance capsuleers.

But we pew pew baseliners every single day, and most CCP events deal with thousands of non capsuleers

[Lyn Farel]

Because of lore inconsistencies.

What annoys me a lot more is that CONCORD gets farmed in nullsec, so if they do own it... lol. But they do.

 

[Lyn Farel]

I think there is a clear distinction between freelance capsuleers (us) and faction capsuleers (as we know they exist). The latter probably are sheltered and given what they need by their factions that probably have even tighter leashes. The former, us, are bound by CONCORD. CONCORD doesn't care for freelance capsuleers to claim to be pirate loyalists. What those only do is murdering other freelance capsuleers in a world where they interact only with freelance capsuleers...

They are just kept apart in lower sec status not to cause too much trouble in high sec space towards their fellow freelance capsuleers.

But we pew pew baseliners every single day, and most CCP events deal with thousands of non capsuleers

Baseliners belonging to NPC fleets that are probably cleared for action by CONCORD, since they all trespass the local law in some way.

Which becomes extremely problematic in the case of pirate missions in nullsec, which still doesn't fit at all, especially regarding those missions with CONCORD ships to shoot.

[Halcyon]

"0.0 space, sometimes referred to as null-sec, are lawless EVE regions outside of CONCORD control."

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/0.0

I've underlined the relevant bit

Then why do capsuleers pay billions of isk to concord for little flags?

I don't know. People say that  x y and z in game and lore make concord omnipotent and that we have to follow CCPs lore. Well, CCPs lore says they aren't. I've made my suggestion as to why you pay money. Because it's presumably easier if you pay concord to let everything hook into their stuff than build your own infrastructure.
I'm with Merdaneth, it's like the bible, take the bits that make sense to you. You can't claim to know everything. I mean, do you guys know what the president does on his lunch break?

[Morwen Lagann]

"Outside of CONCORD control" is a misnomer.

It is outside the influence of CONCORD's rapid-response system and its ability to respond instantly to aggression between capsuleers. Similar to lowsec in that regard.

It is not outside CONCORD's actual sphere of influence as far as independent capsuleers go, and it is certainly not outside of their reach as an entity. They do regularly send agents and fleets out into nullsec (try running missions for the pirate factions, or running the Angel arc), and our fees paid to them for sovereignty and the like are literally us paying for the privilege of 'claiming' we own the space.

CONCORD still rewards you for hunting designated "pirate" NPCs with ISK and sec status, even in places they don't have "control" in. That alone suggests quite a bit of monitoring capability - and at that level it would be surprising if they didn't have the ability to killswitch someone if they felt like it were necessary.

[Halcyon]

Yet it is still outside of their prime jurisdiction. And Wormholes certainly are. No Authority is ever omnipotent. They have quite a lot of power and capabilities yes, but claiming they're everywhere and in everything doesn't work. Not in terms of lore, not in terms of sanity and definitely not in terms of games mechanics.
We're talking about a galaxy with hundreds of inhabitable planets and billions of people. You have to suspend disbelief here and there. Unless Concord is actually God, there's going to be some way around them.

[Anskek]

lol holy shit I didn't know this thread blew up so much. Christ, if someone wants to have a few extra clones in a small out of the way corner of the sandbox and ain't using them like a Chinese acrobatic team, who cares? Let 'em have their fun lol.

[Morwen Lagann]

They're inside your capsule's soft/firm/wet/hardware, and the monitoring equipment built around that. They don't need to be anywhere else in a physical sense, when we have instantaneous FTL communication.

Choosing not to exercise a power or ability available to you does not mean you don't have it.

They can revoke our cloning licenses (bans). They can shut down our capsules (also bans). They can prevent us from shooting at things (planets outside of Dust-based OB), and seeing things (like proper civilian traffic).

That they often choose not to do things along those lines, does not mean that they cannot. It means nothing more than "they choose not to".