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[Silas Vitalia]

Saede been reading "Ancillary Justice" :p

Here's my point.   Yes it is a thing that is technically possible, in the PF, to wake up multiple simultaneous clones.  Full stop.

Why doesn't everyone do this?  Because this is the top #1 or #2 ilegal thing in the entire IP. Slavery? Who cares. Mass murder? Who cares.  Multiple clones? WTFBBQ time all hands on deck.  Every government, all of CONCORD will hunt you down take your capsuleer license, terminate you immediately. 

So yes you could do it, but if you ever breathed a word of it to anyone, ever, or someone had evidence you would never be allowed to dock, use a stargate, use ISK, use your pod, etc.  If you are willing to RP that you will never leave WH space even once maybe I could see it?  I dunno.  I'm really wary of this sort of YDIW discussions but I'd love to hear more of your rationale for this sort of thing?

Let's all stay nice here though this is good talk....

[Silas Vitalia]

This is a bad area of the IP for me in general though, there's a lot of capsuleer awfulness going on that CONCORD and the empires doesn't blink at. I can shoot imperial navy and dock at their stations, etc.   Be space bad and no one cares.    The multiple clone thing is a bit game destroying though? Caldari Navy would just make 1000 copies of their oldest navy high SP titan pilots and put the super clones in all the ships.   You could just take your best officers and make 1000 of them. 

[Saede Riordan]

This is a bad area of the IP for me in general though, there's a lot of capsuleer awfulness going on that CONCORD and the empires doesn't blink at. I can shoot imperial navy and dock at their stations, etc.   Be space bad and no one cares.    The multiple clone thing is a bit game destroying though? Caldari Navy would just make 1000 copies of their oldest navy high SP titan pilots and put the super clones in all the ships.   You could just take your best officers and make 1000 of them.

Yes you could. You flat out could do exactly that. EVE suffers from missing some of the truly staggering implications associated with the technologies we regularly use in the canon. It honestly greatly surprises me that no one has said 'fuck concord' and had multiple active clones before me. As for me, I'm public about, Saede 'came out' as a multiple on the IGS. If concord wants to do something about it, I live in J120442, they know where to find me.

[Ibrahim Tash-Murkon]

I'm probably about to reveal my ignorance here but isn't the cloning infrastructure dependent on CONCORD? Would it even be possible to conduct a consciousness transfer that CONCORD didn't know about? If not then the reason capsuleers don't do it isn't just because CONCORD says it's illegal but because they actively control the systems required to maintain clones and consciousness transfers.

[Silas Vitalia]

This is a bad area of the IP for me in general though, there's a lot of capsuleer awfulness going on that CONCORD and the empires doesn't blink at. I can shoot imperial navy and dock at their stations, etc.   Be space bad and no one cares.    The multiple clone thing is a bit game destroying though? Caldari Navy would just make 1000 copies of their oldest navy high SP titan pilots and put the super clones in all the ships.   You could just take your best officers and make 1000 of them.

Yes you could. You flat out could do exactly that. EVE suffers from missing some of the truly staggering implications associated with the technologies we regularly use in the canon. It honestly greatly surprises me that no one has said 'fuck concord' and had multiple active clones before me. As for me, I'm public about, Saede 'came out' as a multiple on the IGS. If concord wants to do something about it, I live in J120442, they know where to find me.

That sort of RP rationale can be problematic though?   We could just as easily ask saede to prove it and have two of you fly a ship at the same time in space? Or have two of you join a chat channel? This is a difficult road to go down. 

There's plenty of things we do with characters that the game doesn't represent, though, I dunno.   I'm not trying to be a stick in the mud here but this just sounds like one of those things that is way outside of mutually acknowledged  community world building?   

The PF seems pretty clear this is a thing you can't do without being deaded by all the governments everywhere?

I also don't support it because we have no evidence of any other PF groups doing this? Why would a player capsuleer have access to things the big 4 do not?  All our tech is on loan from them pre approved by CONCORD.   

[Louella Dougans]

I'm probably about to reveal my ignorance here but isn't the cloning infrastructure dependent on CONCORD? Would it even be possible to conduct a consciousness transfer that CONCORD didn't know about? If not then the reason capsuleers don't do it isn't just because CONCORD says it's illegal but because they actively control the systems required to maintain clones and consciousness transfers.

Something something something, blah de blah de blah, it is Forbidden By Law for CONCORD to order the destruction of all a capsuleer's clones, such that the next time they die in space it is for good.

Blah de blah de blah, why the hell would CONCORD allow the capsuleer officers of the pirate factions to register themselves as capsuleers in the "CONCORD database" of characters ?


Also people have said in the past, about having multiple active bodies at once. It was ages ago. Years.

And CONCORD won't do anything about it, because the game world does very, very little, about recognising anything that player characters do.

Example: Players move over a million rescued slaves to the Republic. Not the smallest twitch from any NPC entity. A NPC event actor gets some NPC freighters to move 1.1million slaves. BIGGEST NEWS EVER.

Breaking CONCORD laws means absolutely nothing, to the game universe, unless there's an event on. And even if there was an event on, the event actors are forbidden, by IA rules and policies, to actually do anything, other than type a few, consequence free, lines in local chat.
Look what happened when people shot the Republic actor during the Sansha's Nation events. There was a storm (not from the involved characters), and the consequences were reversed.


From one perspective, going "Hahaha, I'm breaking CONCORD law and they're not doing anything about it!" is little more than loudly going into every IC channel and typing "Guys, hey, guys, hey, stop, listen, FOURTH WALL FOURTH WALL LOLOLOLOL". After the first instance, it just becomes background noise with no RP value to others.

So yeah, someone has multiple clones. Like I said before, all that means that if you're rping with them, they've told your character that your character is not worth their character's full attention. Wow. So RP.

[Silas Vitalia]

This is a fun area to talk about. For example if someone is an imperial loyalist they can go into a channel and yell "death to the empress god is dead!!" And face no in game consequences. 

However in the lore, in the PF world of Eve that would be a very big deal, I'd expect that Amarr character to be in super big trouble the next time they left the concord protected capsuleer area anywhere in the empire.  In a totalitarian theocracy you get burnt for that sort of blasphemy.

So we always have a divide between what we "can" do and what would actually be appropriate or feasable IC for player characters.

It just means I do a fair bit of eye rolling from certain types when I hear of certain behaviors or actions. 

I have to sort of construct a concord bubble of capseer immunity around this stuff, which explains why matari rebels can dock in amarr prime, or slavers can visit the republic.  Concord says hands off in concord controlled parts of the station. Yulai accord signitaries have to suck it up.   

But that doesn't cover the pirate loyalists, so how do we justify sansha supporters docking in stations? 

Its all a bit screwed up, but we try to make it work.   

[Lyn Farel]

Sansha supporters like all pirate supporters are all players, and so independent capsuleers. The game world stops right there and doesn't go further. If you really want to stick to everything the game says, then trillions or even bazillions of people die in missions everyday, and CONCORD considers capsuleer pirate loyalists are a joke, just like you consider your own teenager going all satanist like a joke not really worth your attention.

And well, after all, look at it that way, it's not far from what we see : most players change allegiance all the time and act like independent capsuleers full of passing fads. And a few don't and are very serious. And CONCORD still doesn't care because form their point of view, they are still freelance independents. As long as they respect their sec status quota and pay for their licence...

You can find plenty of wonky explanations for ingame silliness vs what the lore says because we, as players, as much as we play in a sandbox where we have a lot of tools at our disposal, we actually have no tools at all to involve ourselves in the world we play in and live in a bubble set apart of everything. The game was not designed with the lore in mind and has never been.

[Ché Biko]

So..New Eden:
Capsuleers are allowed to threaten planets, kill millions of law abiding crew and civilians (which are mostly not replaced by clones), smuggle slaves and torture them in starbases, place planetary industrial facilities almost anywhere they please, we're so smart we can't build/use a Toaster without ECAID approval (but we can be a Toaster, despite Sansha being almost the only unifying factor for the Big Four), but...walking around in multiple clones is THE big no-no nobody can get away with? (Edit: I just realized that the difficulty of terminating a Multiple might actually be a reason for CONCORD to ban it.)

If all of the above is not breaking the fourth wall, then I don't see how Saede's fiction could be. Although I am admittedly quite resistant/tolerant to what some might call derpery...I feel like this is an area where CCP could possibly actually use some counter-fiction. I think that CONCORD is not as powerful as many think it is, especially when capsuleers start to realize some things, like in part II of the Jita 4-4 chron.

Also, who is to say that CONCORD is not doing anything about Saede? Unless I see a DED guy saying so, I would not believe it. Maybe I would not believe it even if it was said. Why would you?
Sometimes we believe we see the whole picture because we get to read OOC knowledge, but forget we don't know about all the manipulations, motivations, actions and consequences that are behind the curtains. For all we know, CONCORD has some very solid reasoning behind not invading Origin, if they don't.

I see Saede's fiction as an extension of the lore, not as conflicting with the lore. And in some parts, better than CCP's lore.
Also, this rebellious fiction seem quite compatible with the capsuleer rebellion vs. the empires/CONCORD thing that Grumpy CONCORD Guy (or whatever his name is) was frowning about.

Origin:
Clones for all, AI's, Multiples, Networks...sounds like logical experimental continuation based on the sci-fi tech of New Eden, for some capsuleer with a rebellious streak. Wether the experiment will (be allowed to) succeed is another thing.
Watch this space.

_{Side note: I find the whole Darkweather Agent thing more "jarring", as I see the public existence of something with the appeal of the Kyonoke virus within Origin to be muuuuch more of a reason for a whole lot of interest of various powerful parties than the Multiple thingie. That is why both me and Ché would say "Get rid of it!"}

[Merdaneth]

Right, so there's no point arguing with you since you'll just ignore any lore you don't like. Gotcha.

Nope, I ignore lore that I cannot make sense of or lacks internal consistency. Compare it to using the Bible to guide your faith, but not taking everything mentioned there literally and flat-out rejecting the parts that don't make sense at all.

PF/Lore is simply not holy and immutable to me. Considering that lore has been retro-actively changed in the past, you should consider that lore certainly isn't a fixed thing that isn't open to interpretation or outright radical change. Even better, in a MMORPG like EVE, if the player base attaches itself to a particular idea, odds are that it will become a part of lore. Like use of latin phrases for Amarrian.

I as a player have decided that it is impossible to create multiple active copies because its factually impossible in EVE. Even if I should create several different account to simulate it, people still couldn't talk to 7 Merdaneth's at the same time, nor could he be involved in 7 PvP battles at the same time. Everything in the game says it doesn't happen. It is simply a way of finding an explanation why it doesn't happen. I can find such an explanation that fits for Merdaneth.

EVE is a fantasy world. There are no facts in PF. Its made up. That is why facts are even less relevant than they are in our real world. What matters most is belief.

[Merdaneth]

I'm probably about to reveal my ignorance here but isn't the cloning infrastructure dependent on CONCORD? Would it even be possible to conduct a consciousness transfer that CONCORD didn't know about? If not then the reason capsuleers don't do it isn't just because CONCORD says it's illegal but because they actively control the systems required to maintain clones and consciousness transfers.

You can make unlimited clone bodies. No crime there. You can store brain scans. No crime there.

Once you put the two together, then its a crime. But by then its way too late to do anything about it. Even then, you could just use a scapegoat to put the two together.

If it is indeed a terrible crime as mentioned, I'll simply pay a clone tech 1 million isk to have two clones activated at once. Ooops, my mistake sir! And then your pilot would be forever banned as capsuleer? Or is the clone tech punished. Doesn't Concord have corrupt officials. Don't they ever make mistakes. And what then with the two clones? Is one arbitrarily killed?

In short: the whole "people don't do it because it is a worse crime than killing 1 million people" just feels idiotic to me.

It is way cooler to think that 'for unknown reasons people have not managed to create duplicate clones from the same brainscan' (barring some exceptions perhaps). Some weird quantum entanglement with human brain waves. Something else. Who knows?

[Merdaneth]

This is a fun area to talk about. For example if someone is an imperial loyalist they can go into a channel and yell "death to the empress god is dead!!" And face no in game consequences. 

However in the lore, in the PF world of Eve that would be a very big deal, I'd expect that Amarr character to be in super big trouble the next time they left the concord protected capsuleer area anywhere in the empire.  In a totalitarian theocracy you get burnt for that sort of blasphemy.

So we always have a divide between what we "can" do and what would actually be appropriate or feasable IC for player characters.

We can make things up. You could have made up that Jamyl didn't die. And then you would be slapped around the head by many players with PF that says she did die. 'Look, its a fact, because CCP has written it!'. Then years later you're suddenly right.

Of course, if you claimed she didn't die, you would be looked at by many people oddly. And so you should be. The issue comes into play if OOC knowledge is used as immutable fact. I don't think we should do so. Its poor for healthy gameplay.

[Merdaneth]

Oh yeah. And more in-game proof.

https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/Drake%20Arson
https://gate.eveonline.com/Profile/Citizen%20Arson

You might as well be quoting the bible to me to claim that the earth was really created in 6 days.

I simply don't attribute as much weight to the 'word of God' from CCP that you do. I'm simply claiming that I see no proof of the sun orbiting the earth other than what is written by CCP. And I see a lot of proof that the earth is orbiting the sun.

[Anyanka Funk]

Would it be OK to use an 'illegally activated clone in null sec' excuse to rp as being somewhere you are not instead of using the old 'interbus' excuse?

[Pieter Tuulinen]

This is a bad area of the IP for me in general though, there's a lot of capsuleer awfulness going on that CONCORD and the empires doesn't blink at. I can shoot imperial navy and dock at their stations, etc.   Be space bad and no one cares.    The multiple clone thing is a bit game destroying though? Caldari Navy would just make 1000 copies of their oldest navy high SP titan pilots and put the super clones in all the ships.   You could just take your best officers and make 1000 of them.

Yes you could. You flat out could do exactly that. EVE suffers from missing some of the truly staggering implications associated with the technologies we regularly use in the canon. It honestly greatly surprises me that no one has said 'fuck concord' and had multiple active clones before me. As for me, I'm public about, Saede 'came out' as a multiple on the IGS. If concord wants to do something about it, I live in J120442, they know where to find me.

I choose to believe that Saede never operates more than a single clone at once in Concord space. When I see her piloting two ships in the same place at once, I'll think differently.