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[Gwen Ikiryo]

So, I was recently explaining the nature of the IGS and why it's not really considered acceptable to post extensive setups and preambles before your IC content to a new player over in Eve Fiction and how it tends to funtion as sort of a... In-universe forum for characters in peoples minds, rather then sort of the traditional sort of roleplaying board that exists as a meta-platform for freeform roleplay, with threads serving as essentially by-post versions of in game RP channels or organized RP events. Or rather, as physical (or not-so-physical, for VR or video roleplay) locations.

And while trying to explain the reason for it being that way, I ended up genuinely confused: Why is it like that? Because it's really strange and almost completely unique amongst online roleplay communities, paticularly MMOs. If you look at literally any other MMO roleplay forum, even the sci-fi ones for which an actual modern dayish forum in the game world would make total sense, all of them follow the exact same model of having a spattering of private roleplay signup threads and mostly (and I say this with as much affection as possible) threads of very in-depth, prose heavy dueling IC essays.

Now, you might be the about to say that it's because of Eves inherent unique sandboxyness, or because of CCP half-clarifying what the IGS is in meta terms in how they moderate it. But here's the thing: Even the Dust 514 IGS has fallen into the same standard overall. And no one seems to really be objecting in the same way strong way they do for IGS, despite the forum being contextually identical. So what's the deal?

I've never really questioned it before, and don't really dislike it per se, and in fact sometimes find it relaxing - Though I do think the IGS is a little shallower then most places as a result - But I don't really get it. Why can't threads like that be more common and accepted alongside the traditional ones, instead of taking the place completely at face value and scorning those who don't?

It's kinda... Dull.

[Havohej]

With the IGS being as it is, much like ingame channel RP, i.e. going back and forth comment for comment, a post like the one that got moved to Eve Fiction leaves very little (that is, nothing) to engage with.

My character looks at a post full of unknowable thoughts and motivations and so on and so forth, and while it may all be good and interesting writing - nobody else knows any of that stuff, and therefore cannot actually respond to/interact with it.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

With the IGS being as it is, much like ingame channel RP, i.e. going back and forth comment for comment, a post like the one that got moved to Eve Fiction leaves very little (that is, nothing) to engage with.

My character looks at a post full of unknowable thoughts and motivations and so on and so forth, and while it may all be good and interesting writing - nobody else knows any of that stuff, and therefore cannot actually respond to/interact with it.

Well, I was less talking about that post specifically - There are a few little problems with it that are frequent newbie mistakes from people not intimately familiar with the setting - But rather just the general trend of rejecting forum threads that can't be contextualized as your-character-literally-reading-a-forum.

Or, rather, why is the IGS "as it is"?

[Katrina Oniseki]

Because one of CCP's rules is that it is an In-Character only forum, and any out of character threads will be locked or shut down. OOC posts are also removed.

Over time, those rules came to be interpreted both by GMs, ISD, Devs, and Players to mean that the IGS is a place for characters to post In-Character. The typical habit of EVE players to post battle reports, call-outs, and host discussions carried over into the IGS and turned it into the roleplaying version of the rest of the forums.

In short, EVE's player mentality and CCP's rule against OOC posting in the IGS shaped it over time into what it is today. I don't think CCP ever sat down to say how the IGS needs to be considered, but rather a continuing pattern of posting behavior came to be seen as the only acceptable norm.

[Samira Kernher]

Because everything in EVE is IC.

The Intergalactic Summit is no more OOC than any other part of the game. It doesn't need set up, it doesn't need scene-setting, it is what it is. It's an IC message board that capsuleers post on in their freetime, just like we do RL.

I, for one, see nothing wrong with this. Precisely because it's unique and immersive. "Meta-platforms" are dull and boring because there is no real point to them. You have to invent scenes, invent reasons for characters to be at those scenes, and so on. It makes them feel very fake (honestly, in-game physical events in chat channels feels the same way, but there is sadly no way around that without a proper avatar game). IGS on the other hand is literally something my character is browsing and posting on in her own time. That is very immersive.

It's the simulation aspect, which is what makes EVE as intriguing as it is for RP. That's what I want from my EVE RP. If I want to be writing a cooperative story I go to a site that is built around that. That isn't EVE, and frankly for me isn't any other MMO either. MMO RP is the place for real time, immersive 'getting-into-your-character's-daily-life' RP. That is what the IGS is and it's better for it. IGS is the only MMO RP forum I actually engage with precisely because it's about stepping into your character's head and experiencing their life instead of writing fictional stories -about- a character's life.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

I, for one, see nothing wrong with this. Precisely because it's unique and immersive. "Meta-platforms" are dull and boring because there is no real point to them. You have to invent scenes, invent reasons for characters to be at those scenes, and so on.

How is this different from RP events and BaRP, though? I mean, what you do in those has no real impact on the game itself, and in most cases the only reason your character is showing up is because "this is where the RP is" on a meta level. So why does it matter if the exact same thing is just done in a play-by-post format instead? You might say "because it isn't live", but really, RP in channels isn't really live either - Considering it sometimes takes people upwards of five minutes to write a message in really heavy stuff - It's just not live faster.

I mean, generally speaking, I totally agree with what you're saying. I love Eve because it has the potential to create an environment of immersion and real cause and effect like you're talking about here that you simply can't get anywhere else, that can lead to fascinatingly fluid and dynamic roleplay that's completely impossible in a static, dead world, even if that often leads stuff that takes you out of your comfort zone as both a player and a roleplayer.

But there's no rule that says it has to be that way, not on the IGS, or in the game itself - It's just what the mechanics tend to encourage. The idea of "Everything in Eve is IC" is ultimately a player invention. So what would be the problem with letting people engage in that kind of roleplay if they wanted to/prefer it, if you don't interface with them? I love both storytelling and immersionist roleplay, and doing both with Gwen would be great.

But that's kinda not gonna happen if we chase people off for violating unwritten IGS convention.

[Esna Pitoojee]

I am no authority by any means, but I think the history of EVE has a great deal of influence on this particular matter:

During beta, more traditional "forum roleplay" happened a great deal. Since it was just about all players could do that would have any hope of surviving to actual launch, it was noticed. Then actual launch hit, and all of a sudden what you did ingame mattered; what you did on the forum, did not (or, at least not to the same degree). The incentive for "traditional" forum RP was removed.

So instead the IGS took on a new role: Discussion of what was going on ingame. While words could not actually destroy spaceships, they certainly could provoke, hint, or attract players into fighting. Many corps were at the very least what we would call "RP lite"; more dedicated RP groups were also more numerous. All of these flocked to the IGS as a central point for making announcements where they could be sure they would be seen. In this day and age news articles were also far, far more common than they are now; at the very least, you could expect a new news piece every week or so, "fluff" or otherwise. This discussion, too, was funneled into the IGS.

In time CCP embraced it in this role as well, using the IGS as a central place in which people could throw questions at Live Event or news-central characters and actual expect a response.

[Samira Kernher]

How is this different from RP events and BaRP, though? I mean, what you do in those has no real impact on the game itself, and in most cases the only reason your character is showing up is because "this is where the RP is" on a meta level. So why does it matter if the exact same thing is just done in a play-by-post format instead? You might say "because it isn't live", but really, RP in channels isn't really live either - Considering it sometimes takes people upwards of five minutes to write a message in really heavy stuff - It's just not live faster.

The answer is exactly because it's live. It is you playing out your character's life in real time. Text naturally slows it down, but that's much different from an RP scenario on a play-by-post forum where you are quite literally RPing the same event over the course of a month or longer.

But there's no rule that says it has to be that way, not on the IGS, or in the game itself - It's just what the mechanics tend to encourage. The idea of "Everything in Eve is IC" is ultimately a player invention. So what would be the problem with letting people engage in that kind of roleplay if they wanted to/prefer it, if you don't interface with them? I love both storytelling and immersionist roleplay, and doing both with Gwen would be great.

Because it breaks immersion if posted on the IGS, because the IGS IS an IC forum. It is not a half-and-half OOC/IC forum, it is strictly IC.

If people want to write stories, either solo or cooperative, then EVE Fiction is the place for that kind of thing. Which is what happened with the post you are referring to... it was moved to EVE Fiction. The other alternative is Backstage.

But that's kinda not gonna happen if we chase people off for violating unwritten IGS convention.

That convention is not that hard to discover by reading other topics.

Story-writing is for the EVE Fiction forum. IGS is an in-character message board. It breaks immersion to allow non-IC posts on an IC forum, just as much as ((OOC chat like this breaks immersion on the Summit or any other IC channel)). And yes, storywriting in that sense is very much an OOC post, because it's treating the RP as an "other" happening instead of actually being IC in and of its own writing.

Anything posted on the IGS is written by the character, not by the player. That is the crux of it.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

It might be convention, but it's nowhere in the rules. They say, "This is a place for roleplay", not, "This is an in-universe forum".

Do you think if I made a thread like the one I linked in the Dust 514 forum, with less preamble then the one we're talking about and an [Open Roleplay] tag at the title, it would get moved?

I might do it and find out.

[Samira Kernher]

Yes it would, if it wasn't treated as the character doing the actual writing.

ICly, Sami would assume that Gwen, the character, is starting a roleplay topic. There would be no thought of it being Gwen the player, because on IGS there are no players, only characters.

[Samira Kernher]

And the rules state it clearly as I see it:

"1. In Character
Absolutely no out of character (OOC) comments or references are allowed. This is the only forum where players can immerse themselves completely in role-play... Leave your real self behind, stay true to your character and have fun!"

That to me says that the forum itself is IC, not simply a medium for players writing stories.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

And the rules state it clearly as I see it:

"1. In Character
Absolutely no out of character (OOC) comments or references are allowed. This is the only forum where players can immerse themselves completely in role-play... Leave your real self behind, stay true to your character and have fun!"

That to me says that the forum itself is IC, not simply a medium for players writing stories.

That exact same rule is in effect on the DUST IGS, and yet it's covered in those kind of threads. It's a pretty vague directive, all things considered - Is setting a scene in character? Clearly it's permitted to a limited extent for all the people who describe their posts as being video feeds. So why wouldn't it go further?

All the stuff you're saying about the IGS's inherent nature is only so because of general player consensus, which, considering it's not directly written in stone, isn't fair to people who might not share in that consensus. Even if lots of people believe in the idea right now, if the forum became covered in traditional roleplay threads, there'd be no choice but for people to OOCly accept a distinction between them and literalist posts.

I think it's something that should be tested. It shouldn't perpetuate itself for no other reason than "this is how it's always been". Because right now there's simply no place for that sort of roleplay, or the people who prefer it - It's far more out of place in EVE Fiction, a wholly OOC board that anyone can happily walk in on and interrupt roleplay in, then in the IGS.

[Samira Kernher]

If the rules leave it vague then it's the rules that should be changed, not the convention. The rules should make it clear that it's an in-universe message board.

And EVE Fiction can be that place. It's NO different than any other RP forum on any other MMO. The RP forums on, say, WoW were places comprised of both plenty of purely OOC discussions about RP and lore as well as the open RP stories you're referring to. EVE Fiction acts in that exact same capacity. In both cases, the only thing stopping OOCers from walking in and interrupting is common decency.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

Well, in that case, someone should make a traditional RP thread - A normal one that is clear about what it is, and not sort of vaguely half way between story and roleplay example like the one that prompted this discussion - in the IGS anyway, and see if CCP moves it to set a precedent.

That is, if the IGS is what the players have defined it as officially now, or otherwise.

[Lyn Farel]

So, I was recently explaining the nature of the IGS and why it's not really considered acceptable to post extensive setups and preambles before your IC content to a new player over in Eve Fiction and how it tends to funtion as sort of a... In-universe forum for characters in peoples minds, rather then sort of the traditional sort of roleplaying board that exists as a meta-platform for freeform roleplay, with threads serving as essentially by-post versions of in game RP channels or organized RP events. Or rather, as physical (or not-so-physical, for VR or video roleplay) locations.

And while trying to explain the reason for it being that way, I ended up genuinely confused: Why is it like that? Because it's really strange and almost completely unique amongst online roleplay communities, paticularly MMOs. If you look at literally any other MMO roleplay forum, even the sci-fi ones for which an actual modern dayish forum in the game world would make total sense, all of them follow the exact same model of having a spattering of private roleplay signup threads and mostly (and I say this with as much affection as possible) threads of very in-depth, prose heavy dueling IC essays.

Now, you might be the about to say that it's because of Eves inherent unique sandboxyness, or because of CCP half-clarifying what the IGS is in meta terms in how they moderate it. But here's the thing: Even the Dust 514 IGS has fallen into the same standard overall. And no one seems to really be objecting in the same way strong way they do for IGS, despite the forum being contextually identical. So what's the deal?

I've never really questioned it before, and don't really dislike it per se, and in fact sometimes find it relaxing - Though I do think the IGS is a little shallower then most places as a result - But I don't really get it. Why can't threads like that be more common and accepted alongside the traditional ones, instead of taking the place completely at face value and scorning those who don't?

It's kinda... Dull.

That's a rather good question and even with so many Eve years behind me I still don't know the answer, though I never really thought about it myself. The IGS just is, and exists as such...

I also suppose that participative RP forum writing (which is the medium I prefer over any RP medium), which is very close to a tabletop RPG with a GM overall but in a novel format, implies a certain degree of privacy, or at least semi public with friends or circles of players you know. I guess you can jump in like this too, but overall the open public side of the IGS doesn't really help on the matter.

Also, and more important, such forums with participative storytelling, like authors cooperating to write a story, implies commitment (its main flaw imo, when someone starts to drop out of boredom or weariness...). The IGS the radical opposite to that, which is a place where you can show up, post casually, and gtfo. Or just drop your ugly troll.

So yes, in any case, and having myself been rather active on the IGS over one or two years, I can say past that experience that I find the place most of the time stupid, bland, OOCly aggressive with half of the time IC/OOC bleedovers, and dull as you say, overall. Not the kind of place you go to have insightful discussions and more subtle storytelling and character development. Well, much like The Summit, no ?