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[Anyanka Funk]

I loved that the burning life told the story of baseliners doing the things they did. Sure they could have made it the way you wanted it. But they didn't and I like that I just bought three books instead of thirty books. I liked drem's story and family is a significant part of life as a blood raider. I liked that it was dark but it still was not as dark as it could've been. The agents perspective was also nice. And also seeing inside of the factions from the characters point of views was nice as well. It was not a big budget book. It was better than the tony g books in my opinion but they too have a place in the bowels of my heart. Maybe one day they will make the book you wanted them to make. I like what we have from ccp so far though.

Also, I agree with louella and silas about adding to cyberization lore. I don't think ccp have written themselves into a corner at all. Eve is big and can be expanded indefinitely. Who says they won't add real space physics to eve and retcon fluid space? This is ccp we are talking about here.

I am completely disregarding TBL as it's just flat out stupid. This isn't Shadowrun. Humanity doesn't come from what your limbs or organs are made from.

What is 'humanity' though? Didn't Socrates describe humans as a featherless biped?

On the topics of implants, how many can you have and still remain human? At what point do you become a Sansha-like cyborg? The Khanid are now using sub-cranial implants to control their slaves, which is certainly veering into 'meat robot' territory. I suppose this becomes an 'Argonaut's ship' sort of problem. If you have a vehicle such as a wooden boat or a metal car, and every piece eventually gets damaged and replaced, is it still the same original boat or car?

Are capsuleers even human? Apparently we are more like humanoids, human in shape only. Our bodies are made out of some biomass which doesn't even contain our own DNA at first. We aren't milk drinking mammals, we are more like 'possessed' re-animated flesh golems. 

It does make me wonder about trans-humanism. Why even bother with the fleshy, squishy human looking occupant at all? Why not just upload our minds directly into a ship's black box computer instead? Then, when the ship goes into structure, a small hard box the size of a car battery auto-ejects and warps off. If we need a humanoid body to walk around a station in, we could use an android.

Also, why stick to the human shape? Our form is useful on the surface of a 1 G planet, but what about in a microgravity environment? Wouldn't it be more useful to have the body of a cephalod (squid)? Those big eyes and eight arms would certainly come in pretty handy for a combat pilot. Squids are already adapted to spending their entire lives in a liquid micro-gravity environment, unlike humans.

If Blood Raiders eat nothing but human flesh, why not develop a more carnivorous body for one's self such as a canine? A humanoid body with a wolf's head might sound corny, but it would be quite practical for a Blood Raider.

Today, there is an Electrical engineer in the U.S. who is in the process of getting his body transformed into a cat. He calls himself 'Stalking cat'. He has filed his teeth into pointed shapes, tattooed leopard spots all over his body, and has had whiskers surgically implanted into his cheeks. I notice that surgery, like gambling, was once an option in some NPC stations. Apparently though, this has been taken out.

Dogs (and cats) have sharp teeth and claws, and a digestive system specifically designed for the ingestion of raw meat. They have heightened senses, such as a sense of smell (improved scanning). They can be pretty darn scary looking too, which is also helpful for a pirate.

Humans and sapiens in general (Orangutan, Gorilla, Chimpanzees, etc) are either by nature omnivores or vegetarians. Humans with a heavily meat based diet tend to develop health problems such as rectal cancer and so on.

I understand the Tahkmanir were experimenting with Trans-humanism, perhaps the Jovians were as well. Why are capsuleers restricted to only human form?

I was even tempted to deliberately engineer my character to be a Siamese twin of myself. I would clone a female version of myself, then incorporate both genders in the same capsule, joined together at the shoulder and hip. If our bodies become our ships, then surely eight limbs would be better than four? This would be like one of the 'barrel people' that the Ancient Greeks believed once populated Earth.

In the Incal Light series, there was something like this inside of an egg which acted as the Emperor. They called it 'The Supreme Androgyne'. They seemed to share one mind, since both heads talked simultaneously. The Supreme Androgyne was assassinated, and a man and woman who participated said that they would now form the new supreme Androgyne. So clearly, this was not the result of a birth defect, but something that was deliberately chosen.

Oooooooh Jikahr! What other station other than blood raider covenant headquarters in kfie-z had a surgery service in it?

[Silas Vitalia]

that's the universe that CCP have written.

There has to be SOME SIGNIFICANT REASON why it is important to cling to flesh and blood brains in flesh and blood bodies.

I am going to go with Amarr = Religion on this one. "God made man in his own image." So by altering your shape, you are playing God and interfering with God's design.

Minmatar? Ancestor worship.

Caldari? Gallente? I don't know. Religion also?

The more organic something is, the closer it is to God's perfect design. The more electronic/ silicone based something is, the more 'man made' and thus imperfect it is. Rogue drones are a constant reminder of technology gone wrong. So is Sansha's Nation.

Except the Amarr are the most cyberized of all the factions with the most advanced cybernetics woven into their lives

[Silas Vitalia]

I loved that the the burning life told the story of baseliners doingg the things they did. Sure they could have made it the way you wanted it. But they didn't and I like that I just bought three books instead of thirty books. I liked drem's story and family is a significant part of life as a blood raider. I liked that it was dark but it still was not as dark as it could've been. The agents perspective was also nice. And also seeing inside of the factions from the characters point of views was nice as well. It was not a big budhet book. It was better than the tony g books in my opinion but they too have a place in rhe bowels of my heart. Maybe one day they will make the book you wanted them to make. I like what we have from ccp so far though.

Also, I agree with louella and silas about adding to cyberization lore. I don't think ccp have written themselves into a corner at all. Eve is big and can be expanded indefinitely. Who says they won't add real space physicsto eve and retcon fluid space? It Iis ccp we are talking about here.

Oooooooh Jikahr! What other station other than blood raider covenant headquarters in kfie-z had a surgery servIce in it?

While it's sometimes good to do an 'ordinary person in extraordinary events' story (which frankly is much of space opera fiction), the book just seemed too much A to B to C to D visit all the factions let's do a tour of new Eden. 

Also no pun intended but way to de-fang and wimpify the raiders as well.  The need to 'humanize' for background exposition is highly overrated in a sci fi space opera/adventure IP.  In the Eve universe the blood raiders work as psychotic religious zealots doing awful things to people caught in their way. Scurry, ebil things. Talking about their grandmothers makes them laughable and is unnecessary.  Talk about their hideous rituals and sacrifices, talk about their philosophical schizm with the empire if you want.  Don't give me baseliner grandmothers. 

[Esna Pitoojee]

Except the Amarr are the most cyberized of all the factions with the most advanced cybernetics woven into their lives

This. The Amarr care if you alter the basic, fundamental nature of the flesh (i.e., genetic alteration). They don't give a damn if you happen to remove some part of the flesh and replace it with a functional cybernetic alternative (although doing so for mere reasons of personal amusement or fad might be looked down upon in some circles).

[Jikahr]

that's the universe that CCP have written.

There has to be SOME SIGNIFICANT REASON why it is important to cling to flesh and blood brains in flesh and blood bodies.

I am going to go with Amarr = Religion on this one. "God made man in his own image." So by altering your shape, you are playing God and interfering with God's design.

Minmatar? Ancestor worship.

Caldari? Gallente? I don't know. Religion also?

The more organic something is, the closer it is to God's perfect design. The more electronic/ silicone based something is, the more 'man made' and thus imperfect it is. Rogue drones are a constant reminder of technology gone wrong. So is Sansha's Nation.

Except the Amarr are the most cyberized of all the factions with the most advanced cybernetics woven into their lives

True, but there are also Muslims that drink alcohol. This confused me the first time I encountered it, until a Muslim explained to me "Christians aren't supposed to lie, but they sometimes do. Christians aren't supposed to steal, but they sometimes do." Then it became clear to me. The religious prohibition was a guideline for the free willed, not a defining characteristic that applied to each and every Muslim. The devout would abstain, but the weak willed would still struggle to observe it.

Mind you, the Amarrians also believe the cybernetic organs of their Emperors are holy relics. That's a part of the Orthodoxy as well.

[Silas Vitalia]

that's the universe that CCP have written.

There has to be SOME SIGNIFICANT REASON why it is important to cling to flesh and blood brains in flesh and blood bodies.

I am going to go with Amarr = Religion on this one. "God made man in his own image." So by altering your shape, you are playing God and interfering with God's design.

Minmatar? Ancestor worship.

Caldari? Gallente? I don't know. Religion also?

The more organic something is, the closer it is to God's perfect design. The more electronic/ silicone based something is, the more 'man made' and thus imperfect it is. Rogue drones are a constant reminder of technology gone wrong. So is Sansha's Nation.

Except the Amarr are the most cyberized of all the factions with the most advanced cybernetics woven into their lives

True, but there are also Muslims that drink alcohol. This confused me the first time I encountered it, until a Muslim explained to me "Christians aren't supposed to lie, but they sometimes do. Christians aren't supposed to steal, but they sometimes do." Then it became clear to me. The religious prohibition was a guideline for the free willed, not a defining characteristic. The devout would abstain, but the weak willed would still struggle to observe it.

Mind you, the Amarrians also believe the cybernetic organs of their Emperors are holy relics. That's a part of the Orthodoxy as well.

The first people in Amarr society to be heavily cyberized were the elite holders, using the devices to extend longevity to ridiculous lengths (400, 500 year lifespans and counting).  I'm sure the fact that the elites used the devices to continue living so long has a lot to do with it being as a consequence accepted and proper in a spiritual sense.

[Anyanka Funk]

I'm also glad they didn't mary sue blood raiders in tbl. It gives blood raiders roleplayers more substance to give their character than "psychotic religious zealot".

[Jikahr]

The first people in Amarr society to be heavily cyberized were the elite holders, using the devices to extend longevity to ridiculous lengths (400, 500 year lifespans and counting).  I'm sure the fact that the elites used the devices to continue living so long has a lot to do with it being as a consequence accepted and proper in a spiritual sense.

Well, I think there is a difference between cybernetic implants and trans-humanism. Many of us have spectacles, pacemakers, artificial hips and so on. We don't think of ourselves as being less human for it, or in some cases less Godly. Stephen Hawkings is completely dependent on technology to move himself around or even speak, but we wouldn't consider him to be anything other than human.

Cybernetic implants might improve our abilities in the EVE world, but a motorcycle or a forklift will also give you 'super human' powers for those brief periods where you merge your mind with them through their control panels. Similarly, tools that were once considered to be 'the Devil's work' have been gradually accepted and normalized throughout history. I think this is the case in Amarrian society as well.

[Silas Vitalia]

I'm also glad they didn't mary sue blood raiders in tbl. It gives blood raiders roleplayers more substance to give their character than "psychotic religious zealot".

They completely glossed over the evil things the raiders do in the book; the protagonist is a raider in name only.  Specifically he's an -Omir- sect Sabik in name only. 

Here's my point:
Omir is supposedly one of the most cut-throat, twisted, dangerous S.O.B.'s in the cluster with enough cunning and guile to consolidate the Raiders under his rule with a campaign of assassination, torture, and violence, violently killing and purging every single Sabik in his sphere that didn't immediately tow his party line. The man has gassed entire atmospheres with poison.  He is basically one of the psychotic ISIS terrorist ringleaders on steroids.

Now did you get any sense of that in his appearance in The Burning Life in the slightest? Or was he a silly old man who said a few things then the protagonist moved on to the next faction tourist spot?

Not all factions in EVE are equally 'gray area' some are designed from the start as slightly fleshed out mustache-twirling for space opera pew pew villians.

This doesn't mean we can't flesh them out, give them a bit more nuance, but we can't forget what they are.

[Jikahr]

Not all factions in EVE are equally 'gray area' some are designed from the start as slightly fleshed out mustache-twirling for space opera pew pew villians.

This doesn't mean we can't flesh them out, give them a bit more nuance, but we can't forget what they are.

Snidely Whiplash in space.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhC_JJwlep0

[Anyanka Funk]

I get it. But even in the blood raiders missions in game. They are not as bad as everyone who has only seen them through amarrian mission perspective thinks they are. And I like that the books stayed true to the game in that sense. I read the books before I played any covenant missions. I did not feel the same way about the book but I thought going into the missions that I would see more gore. Nope. Most of the missions are defending blood raider space from concord and hauling ore. Nothing really scary ever happens in game either.

[Samira Kernher]

Regarding Amarr and cybernetics: Amarr view cybernetics as a sign of royal divinity. They are literally sculpted onto religious statues in churches.

It's definitely not a matter of 'don't believe in it but do it anyway' like Muslims and alcohol. It's a core component of the faith. Amarr are very pro-cybernetics. They are not an anti-transhuman culture, what they are against is, as Esna said, altering the fundamental God-created being (gene alteration). Augmenting, adding to the existing God-created being through 'exterior' technology like cybernetics though is a well-respected thing.

Also, anything that attacks the free will is less welcome by the faith (TCMCs etc, which are very controversial and banned in more religious territories). They like to augment the mind, not subordinate it.

It's also why Amarrian cybernetics tend to be more overt and obvious, when bio-organic synthetic versions are possible. They don't want to hide them, because having them is something to be respected and even worshipped.

"The Emperor and the Five Heirs can expect to live for at least 500 years. Extensive cyber-implants keep their frail bodies alive, even when their organs begin to fail. These cyber-enhancements date back many millennia, and have become a symbol of royal divinity in the eyes of the Amarrians." - Amarr race article, EVEonline.com


Also, @Silas. It's too late to dump 100% cyberneticization. It's more than just Zainou and Sansha. Dusters are 100% cyberneticized as they are all brain uploaded into a computer database. While the sleeper implant is described as being a bio-implant rather than a cybernetic one, there really isn't a whole lot about them that's human anymore. They're described with terms like "entirely digital existence".

[Mizhara]

I still say they are human. The body does not a human make. You don't say a quadriplegic is less human. You don't say a veteran using a prosthetic is less human. If a digital imprint is capable of simulating the mind sufficiently, it's human. In the case of capsuleers and their "stat" implant, they're superhuman. Accelerating thought and processing does not change the underlying mind. The implants and augmentations all replace or improve existing fundamentals of humans and unless you actually remove parts of the brain/mind somehow without replacing it with some accelerated replacement, then there's nothing less human about them.

There is only one component required in a human and that's the mind. Remove that and you have a flesh puppet you might keep artificially alive or in stasis, keep it and you have a human no matter the container.

The Sansha and others purposely suppressing or even removing that mind becomes another creature entirely (technozombies, for all intents and purposes) but the extremes you have to go to for a capsuleer to be less human would have to be significant.

[Halcyon]

I imagine at its heart it's a fondness for the human form. it was being human that got us into the stars and being human that allows us to identify with each other. When we're designing prosthetics we try and design a human leg rather tan saying "hey, you lost your lower limbs but we're going to give you tracks instead because it's cooler and more functional." At heart capsuleers are human, some will want to move away from that but many won't and therefore the technology will have been designed with that in mind.

[Jace]

While I wasn't particularly bothered by TBL, I can understand the criticisms. The way Raiders were portrayed didn't bother me because I'm not particularly invested in them - but I can understand someone getting angry about it, because I was angry that he put the motherfucking Rabbit in the book at all - let alone portrayed him the way he did.

Overall, I didn't mind the book. But I try my hardest to forget the Gurista portions of it. I can't say it isn't part of the lore, because it is, but damned if I want to think about it.