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That small robots called "cleaner bugs" are used to keep space station areas free of refuse? (The Burning Life p. 74)

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Author Topic: Fancy Capsuleer Implants: Let's Discuss  (Read 9875 times)

Louella Dougans

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Re: Fancy Capsuleer Implants: Let's Discuss
« Reply #15 on: 20 Nov 2014, 11:44 »

Augmentation is a given and you frankly can't go to far here.

Except you can. It's in one of the books, or other PF.

The more technodoodads you put in a person, the less they're able to function as a person, instead of a machine.

the opposing thing was to use the minimum of cybernetic devices, if you want to function as a person.

I think it was a Sansha character explaining this. For their True Slave creatures, they have as much cyberware as possible, because they're just tools, and too little cyberware makes them too human to function as a tool. For their True Citizens, they have as little cyberware as possible, because they need to remain able to think independently.

that's the universe that CCP have written.
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kalaratiri

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Re: Fancy Capsuleer Implants: Let's Discuss
« Reply #16 on: 20 Nov 2014, 12:01 »

It was The Burning Life.

The more human you replace with machine, the less functional they become as humans. The trick is to start with as little human as possible.
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: Fancy Capsuleer Implants: Let's Discuss
« Reply #17 on: 20 Nov 2014, 12:10 »

This was a huge retconning PF fail IMO, that frankly disagrees with years of established PF about the level of cyberization, implants, and what those implants do.

"The Burning Life" should be banished from your thoughts as a steaming pile of PF shite
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kalaratiri

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Re: Fancy Capsuleer Implants: Let's Discuss
« Reply #18 on: 20 Nov 2014, 12:17 »

But.. But the :grimdark:
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Jikahr

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Re: Fancy Capsuleer Implants: Let's Discuss
« Reply #19 on: 20 Nov 2014, 12:44 »

I'd say all the benefits of the stat implants is ultimately balanced out by the synaptic degradation that occurs when cloning, to explain why we still have really really dumb people as capsuleers despite the requirement of 98% intelligence and psych-expanding implants.

The synaptic degradation might be due to other things too, such as combat boosters, radiation, etc.

There is also the case of signal degradation. In an analogue medium (such as the human brain) the recording will always be somewhat more degraded than the original due to background noise. Your cassette tape recording of your favorite record album(s) may sound almost identical to the original, but when you start making a tape of the tape of the tape of the tape, there will be more and more noise and hiss introduced with each copy. This is due to loss of the original signal/ recording. There are imperfections in the recording medium that are exponentially magnified with each successive recording.

In the case of a cassette recording, it's usually something like the noise of the cassette drive motor that causes signal loss. In the case of a capsuleer, it might have to do with the selective editing out of the trauma of your pilot's death (as per the PF). The memory of your death might be removed from your conscious mind, but the trauma and fear might still be stored in your subconscious. The result would be a 'background hiss' in your mind of amnesia, terror and disorientation.

Those holes in your memory, the sense of dread about certain systems, recurring nightmares, and those 'deja vu' feelings will become compounded with each new clone. Sadly, there is no longer an original of you to back you up from. The original was killed when you made your first clone.

Also, you can be highly intelligent in math, science and engineering, and still come across like a knuckle-dragging buffoon when it comes to grammar, literacy, etc.

I have a friend who is making a six figure salary as a business consultant. His background is in electronic engineering. His skills in science and mathematics are highly developed, but he is essentially functionally illiterate when it comes to writing. I have another math genius friend who almost failed his undergraduate Mathematics degree because despite his stellar marks in everything science or math related, he failed his remedial mandatory English course three times, even with help from a special needs tutor. Dyslexia? Possibly. It's not my business to ask. Albert Einstein was apparently dyslexic.

The skills for spaceship piloting tend to be math and science based skills, but the skills for communicating over (OOC metagame) text based channels are grammatical and linguistic. Ability in one field does not necessarily entail ability in another.

In fact, I think there are something like six areas of intelligence, which includes not only mnemonics and spacial, but also social skills and 'emotional intelligence' (empathy).
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Jikahr

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Re: Fancy Capsuleer Implants: Let's Discuss
« Reply #20 on: 20 Nov 2014, 12:49 »

This was a huge retconning PF fail IMO, that frankly disagrees with years of established PF about the level of cyberization, implants, and what those implants do.

"The Burning Life" should be banished from your thoughts as a steaming pile of PF shite

I have not read any of the EVE fiction yet. I was going to get a copy of Burning Life to start with. What would you suggest as an alternative?
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Mizhara

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Re: Fancy Capsuleer Implants: Let's Discuss
« Reply #21 on: 20 Nov 2014, 12:56 »

I am completely disregarding TBL as it's just flat out stupid. This isn't Shadowrun. Humanity doesn't come from what your limbs or organs are made from.
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Anyanka Funk

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Re: Fancy Capsuleer Implants: Let's Discuss
« Reply #22 on: 20 Nov 2014, 13:31 »

I disagree with Silas about TBL.

Are you serious Miz? Do you disregard Anyanka too?

Also, Jika, read The Burning Life please! If you can, read it first!
« Last Edit: 20 Nov 2014, 13:33 by Anyanka Funk »
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: Fancy Capsuleer Implants: Let's Discuss
« Reply #23 on: 20 Nov 2014, 13:40 »

This was a huge retconning PF fail IMO, that frankly disagrees with years of established PF about the level of cyberization, implants, and what those implants do.

"The Burning Life" should be banished from your thoughts as a steaming pile of PF shite

I have not read any of the EVE fiction yet. I was going to get a copy of Burning Life to start with. What would you suggest as an alternative?

The regular eve chronicles have mostly been pretty good and do far more to flesh out the world and characters.

I disagree with Silas about TBL.

What uh, did you like about the characters, plot, or quote unquote 'world building' that took place in that novel?

Way to take a potentially interesting faction like the blood radiers and talk about the man's grandmother? For real? Way to make the leader of the blood raiders look like a ridiculous old man?  The protagonist is awful, the entire story is awful, it's a thinly veiled exposition vehicle to have this "everyman" tour the cluster and miraculously visit all of the pirate factions and all of the pirate faction leaders?  The hell is going on where a random non capsuleer gets to meet the leaders of the Blood Raiders, Sansha K. himself, the Guristas, the Angel Cartel...  For real? It's ----terrrrrible---

Not to mention the awful retconning on things like cybernetics and the like.
 
« Last Edit: 20 Nov 2014, 13:43 by Silas Vitalia »
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: Fancy Capsuleer Implants: Let's Discuss
« Reply #24 on: 20 Nov 2014, 13:47 »

If CCP wanted to do it right IMO, you do a series of books with narrow focus, that all tie in together moving a larger plot forward.

Say your 'story' is 6 books long, you do each novel focusing on an aspect of a faction with appearances by the other factions.

So book 1 might be Caldari focused about a caldari adventure/whatever and deal with their side of x intricate plot

book 2 continues the story from a Matari charcter's point of view, tangentially related or with a cameo by characters from book 1

book 3, etc moving along.

Do 4 with the main factions then keep spinning off with smaller novellas for the subordinate factions, from CONCORD to the Guristas to whatever.

Also you'd get snazzy book spine artwork that would all line up together to make a nice picture :P

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Jace

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Re: Fancy Capsuleer Implants: Let's Discuss
« Reply #25 on: 20 Nov 2014, 14:08 »

This is why I will never involve myself with any cybernetics RP.
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Louella Dougans

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Re: Fancy Capsuleer Implants: Let's Discuss
« Reply #26 on: 20 Nov 2014, 14:17 »

that's the universe that CCP have written.

Well, sorry that the things don't match up to what people want.

In any case, you MUST recall some things which are important.

1. Todo Kirkinen, the Zainou Biotech founder, uploaded his mind to a machine. This is an ingame fact (from the description of Zainou)

2. Brain scans can be stored, and copied many times. This is an ingame fact (from the sansha branch of the amarr epic arc missions)

3. Hardware is unbelieveably cheap. This is an ingame fact (from item descriptions. Nanites, nanites everywhere)

THUSLY

A. There has to be SOME REASON why the capsuleer even exists in a humanoid form, and not simply as a brain scan uploaded to a computer core.

Computer cores are cheap, brain scans are known technologies, it's possible to upload a brain to a machine. Why is this not routine ?

There has to be SOME SIGNIFICANT REASON why it is important to cling to flesh and blood brains in flesh and blood bodies.


Or sure, just go all 110% cybernetic, and be the T-101 and Ahnold your way through all the RP venues.
And people get butthurt about Synthia being a machine.
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: Fancy Capsuleer Implants: Let's Discuss
« Reply #27 on: 20 Nov 2014, 14:26 »

The easiest way to fix the PF would be more along the lines of

-removing the 100% cyber conversion of Zainou

-leaving Sansha K. as the only other 100% cyberized infomorph as it's sort of the core of their faction identity.

-weave in some better pf explanium/nerfing about implants and how they work, with a self-limiting reason that makes some kind of more sense than what they said in burning life, which made zero sense.  Could be as simple as 'we don't have the technology yet to run a consciousness 100% artificial without a living brain' and leave it at that.
'we don't know how the consciousness transfer actually works, the Jovians gave us this black box, we don't know how to make it, or how the actual science works outside of a basic level'

There are ways around it

Eve PF has written itself into a corner on some of the core gameplay elements that if you really think about the underlying technologies you wouldn't get the sort of society and systems they have in the game.



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Jikahr

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Re: Fancy Capsuleer Implants: Let's Discuss
« Reply #28 on: 20 Nov 2014, 14:39 »

I am completely disregarding TBL as it's just flat out stupid. This isn't Shadowrun. Humanity doesn't come from what your limbs or organs are made from.

What is 'humanity' though? Didn't Socrates describe humans as a featherless biped?

On the topics of implants, how many can you have and still remain human? At what point do you become a Sansha-like cyborg? The Khanid are now using sub-cranial implants to control their slaves, which is certainly veering into 'meat robot' territory. I suppose this becomes an 'Argonaut's ship' sort of problem. If you have a vehicle such as a wooden boat or a metal car, and every piece eventually gets damaged and replaced, is it still the same original boat or car?

Are capsuleers even human? Apparently we are more like humanoids, human in shape only. Our bodies are made out of some biomass which doesn't even contain our own DNA at first. We aren't milk drinking mammals, we are more like 'possessed' re-animated flesh golems. 

It does make me wonder about trans-humanism. Why even bother with the fleshy, squishy human looking occupant at all? Why not just upload our minds directly into a ship's black box computer instead? Then, when the ship goes into structure, a small hard box the size of a car battery auto-ejects and warps off. If we need a humanoid body to walk around a station in, we could use an android.

Also, why stick to the human shape? Our form is useful on the surface of a 1 G planet, but what about in a microgravity environment? Wouldn't it be more useful to have the body of a cephalod (squid)? Those big eyes and eight arms would certainly come in pretty handy for a combat pilot. Squids are already adapted to spending their entire lives in a liquid micro-gravity environment, unlike humans.

If Blood Raiders eat nothing but human flesh, why not develop a more carnivorous body for one's self such as a canine? A humanoid body with a wolf's head might sound corny, but it would be quite practical for a Blood Raider.

Today, there is an Electrical engineer in the U.S. who is in the process of getting his body transformed into a cat. He calls himself 'Stalking cat'. He has filed his teeth into pointed shapes, tattooed leopard spots all over his body, and has had whiskers surgically implanted into his cheeks. I notice that surgery, like gambling, was once an option in some NPC stations. Apparently though, this has been taken out.

Dogs (and cats) have sharp teeth and claws, and a digestive system specifically designed for the ingestion of raw meat. They have heightened senses, such as a sense of smell (improved scanning). They can be pretty darn scary looking too, which is also helpful for a pirate.

Humans and sapiens in general (Orangutan, Gorilla, Chimpanzees, etc) are either by nature omnivores or vegetarians. Humans with a heavily meat based diet tend to develop health problems such as rectal cancer and so on.

I understand the Tahkmanir were experimenting with Trans-humanism, perhaps the Jovians were as well. Why are capsuleers restricted to only human form?

I was even tempted to deliberately engineer my character to be a Siamese twin of myself. I would clone a female version of myself, then incorporate both genders in the same capsule, joined together at the shoulder and hip. If our bodies become our ships, then surely eight limbs would be better than four? This would be like one of the 'barrel people' that the Ancient Greeks believed once populated Earth.

In the Incal Light series, there was something like this inside of an egg which acted as the Emperor. They called it 'The Supreme Androgyne'. They seemed to share one mind, since both heads talked simultaneously. The Supreme Androgyne was assassinated, and a man and woman who participated said that they would now form the new supreme Androgyne. So clearly, this was not the result of a birth defect, but something that was deliberately chosen.
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Jikahr

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Re: Fancy Capsuleer Implants: Let's Discuss
« Reply #29 on: 20 Nov 2014, 14:50 »

that's the universe that CCP have written.

There has to be SOME SIGNIFICANT REASON why it is important to cling to flesh and blood brains in flesh and blood bodies.

I am going to go with Amarr = Religion on this one. "God made man in his own image." So by altering your shape, you are playing God and interfering with God's design.

Minmatar? Ancestor worship.

Caldari? Gallente? I don't know. Religion also?

The more organic something is, the closer it is to God's perfect design. The more electronic/ silicone based something is, the more 'man made' and thus imperfect it is. Rogue drones are a constant reminder of technology gone wrong. So is Sansha's Nation.
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