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[Jikahr]

It's also funny how many RL believers play Amarr characters.

It's also funny how RL believers do NOT play Amarr characters.

When I was in faction war I remember a Minmatar player who always named her ships 'Jesus is Lord'. I was confused as to why someone would roleplay being a Christian, and then choose to be the enemy of the theocratic Amarrians.

Then in occurred to me. The Amarrian religion is NOT Christianity. In fact, it is far removed from it. There is no messiah, no message of peace, forgiveness or charity. In fact it seems the Amarrians believe and practice the exact opposite of what Jesus would have preached. If there were still Christians in EVE, they would be opposed to the Amarrian church.

I think the origins from the Universal Catholic Church were meant more as a role play guide rather than as a doctrine. It's not chocolate/ Catholic, but it's 'chocolate flavored'.

Similarly, we can imagine the Amarrian religion to be similar to what we know about the Catholic church, especially through the conquest and absorption of other cultures (Syncretism).

Consider the historical Catholic church that we know. The absorption of hundreds of other cultures has transformed the church in a myriad of ways. The Gods of Pagan Europe became transformed into Saints, the Voodoo rituals of Haitian slaves became absorbed into and accepted by Catholicism. The Catholic church in Africa is radically different from the one in Europe, since they permit dancing in the aisles during services.

Now, consider the thousands of unique and distinct cultures that were categorized under the umbrella of Catholicism on the planet Earth between the years 500 AD and 1500 AD. Everything from Odin worshiping Vikings to head hunting Celts to spirit worshiping Iroquois.

Consider that the New Orleans festival of Mardi Gras ('Fat Tuesday') is a Catholic festival, complete with mask wearing, bead tossing and tit flashing. It looks completely different from something such as Christmas mass in St. Peter's Cathedral, but they are both Catholic nonetheless.

Now, in the case of EVE, we are taking a presumably radical sect of Catholicism (or 'Universal Catholic', which is like saying 'chocolate flavored chocolate'), who are also presumably reactionary (as would be suggested by the name, 'the Conformists'). Not only do they conquer the indigenous people of their own planet, but they go on to conquer thousands of other planets as well. Hundreds of thousands of unique cultures spread over thousands of geographically unique areas and planets on the other side of the Galaxy.

Then of course, we should consider the time span. Comparing the religion of the Amarrians to the Catholic church of today would be a little like comparing the neolithic cult of the Cave bear to modern day Scientology.

That being said, would the Orthodox Amarrian religion believe in Hell, or even an afterlife?

There is a Yiddish expression, 'Two Jews, three opinions'. I think as Samira pointed out, you can belong to the same religion as someone else, yet have a very different opinion even on such matters as the main tenets of that religion.

Do Jews believe in afterlife? Well for one thing, Judaism isn't a 'death centered' religion, like Christianity or Buddhism are. Judaism is a 'life centered' religion, like Shintoism.

The focus of the Jewish religion is on how one should spend one's life. Death is another thing entirely. Some Jews believe in Heaven and Hell, and some Jews do not. It's in God's hands. No one knows. It isn't important.

In Christianity/ Buddhism/ Islam on the other hand, life is seen as a preparation for death, which leads to an eternity of reward (or punishment). Jesus died so you don't have to.

When I first joined EVE, I marvelled at the idea that there even was an Abrahamic religion some 20,000 years in the future. What is the sense of a religion which rewards one with the promise of eternal life in Heaven, when as capsuleers we live forever in outer space (i.e. 'The Heavens') regardless of what we do? As Yuri Gagarin said when he became the first man in space, 'I see no God up here.'

I wonder about such things as getting podded, an actual death, which leads not to the pearly gates of heaven or the brimstone pits of Hell, but merely to a re-awakening in a vat of goo in the same material realm one left behind momentarily.

Wouldn't this experience alone negate the belief in some kind of a Cartesian dualistic spirit realm of the Afterlife? If one is immortal through cloning technology, does the term 'Afterlife' even make any sense?   

I imagined a cartoon about this actually.

A reverent and devout Amarrian Loyalist is shot down and podded by his Minmatar Pirate enemy in faction war.

There is the tunnel of light, as angels lift him and take him into heaven. He comes to stand at the pearly gates before St. Peter. His Grandmother and Grandfather, and pet furrier greet him through the gates.

St. Peter adjusts his spectacles as he reads from the book of life.

"Oh!" he says "I see you are a Navy man!"

The Amarrian rolls his eyes.

He wakes up gasping for air in a clone vat full of goo. The voice of his commanding officer shouts at him from a vidscreen to reship and return to battle. 'Just once' he thinks 'Couldn't I die permanently so I could see my Grandmother and Grandfather again?'

So, if the Amarrians believe in life after death, what is the point of his religion if he suffers the exact same fate as his Minmatar pirate enemy?

[Arista Shahni]

There are silent argument among Amarrian infomorphs as to whether or not they are already soul-less corpses whose spirits have already attained paradise, and they are simply parodies of what they once were, having made the ultimate sacrifice for their Empire.

Hell and "not in the presence of God" are two wholly different concepts; but to a believer, extrapolation of the idea of not being in the presence of god and thus in "paradise" could be considered 'eternal torment' - that whole stuck sitting outside of the wedding party in the darkness because your lamp is empty of oil blahblah new testament before Revelations and other firey bits.

I'm a pagan and polytheistic IRL.  I play Amarr because I was asked on starting Eve, "What kind of guns do you want to shoot?" and in my mind, space-ships should have lasers.  The reason was completely not RP-istic. (yay new word!)

And I wasn't trying to change the topic.  Simply that "Hell" is a term thrown around by EoM far more than Blood Raiders / Sani Sabik.

[Gaven Lok ri]

And I wasn't trying to change the topic.  Simply that "Hell" is a term thrown around by EoM far more than Blood Raiders / Sani Sabik.

Also by hardline types. Tetrimon for sure. Probably also more conservative groups in Amarr Orthodoxy, too.

I kind of find "Some Orthodox Amarr consider hell old fashioned, but other Amarr still fixate on the eternal damnation thing" to be a more interesting long term RP line than "Hell is a heresy."

Would be interesting to have Tash-Murkon types sortof get uncomfortable when people start throwing around the word, while Sarumites or Ardashapurites happily keep using it without noticing.

[Lyn Farel]

@ Jikahr : I hear your point and it's definitely interesting, and while I can probably agree with your classification of Judaism in life centered religions since I know close to nothing about abrahamic stuff, I can't agree with your classification of Shintoism in a life centered religion. To me it's both. it is true that the core tenet revolves around a respect for nature and the kami living inside. But it is also true that those kami follow the same karmic cycle of life, death and reincarnation found in buddhism.

There is a strong emphasis in other realms besides the mortal realm, like Yomi (the realm of all dead things).

And I wasn't trying to change the topic.  Simply that "Hell" is a term thrown around by EoM far more than Blood Raiders / Sani Sabik.

Also by hardline types. Tetrimon for sure. Probably also more conservative groups in Amarr Orthodoxy, too.

I kind of find "Some Orthodox Amarr consider hell old fashioned, but other Amarr still fixate on the eternal damnation thing" to be a more interesting long term RP line than "Hell is a heresy."

Would be interesting to have Tash-Murkon types sortof get uncomfortable when people start throwing around the word, while Sarumites or Ardashapurites happily keep using it without noticing.

Well exactly ! That's how I tried to play it most of the time.

[Samira Kernher]

So, if the Amarrians believe in life after death, what is the point of his religion if he suffers the exact same fate as his Minmatar pirate enemy?

Well, for one the religion isn't -all- about preparation for death. Unlike Christianity there's nothing really secular about Amarr, no separation between church and state concept, so religion is still a major factor in the daily life of an Amarr character regardless of any afterlife. Plus, for religious people, the devotion and worship of God is usually more important than the promise of post-humous reward. It is about submission and service to God.

Additionally, as Arista said, there's debate between Amarr about cloning. It is the nation with the least respect for it, including having religious law outright prohibiting it for royalty, and many believe that clones are just empty shells with no souls. While some have taken on the belief that the soul migrates to the new clone, many don't believe that, probably especially among orthodox conservatives. A lot of Amarr players see their service as capsuleers as a personal sacrifice for Amarr. I think Amarr reluctance towards it is coincidentally well-represented in-game by the fact that there are fewer Amarr capsuleers than any other nation.

Also, even among capsuleers, there is always the option to permanently die. Just at a time of their choosing by canceling their clone contracts.

I think the origins from the Universal Catholic Church were meant more as a role play guide rather than as a doctrine. It's not chocolate/ Catholic, but it's 'chocolate flavored'.

Personally, this is a bit that I just outright ignore. Amarr, while having themes and references to Abrahamic religions, is certainly not a continuation or replica of any of them. It's its own thing, with its own beliefs and customs and tenets. I am able to identify with it because it is still a monotheistic religion with obvious Abrahamic inspirations, which makes it more familiar for me than many other religions in fiction, but definitely not to the point of viewing it as "space catholicism" or anything like that.

[Jace]

You guys are making me want to start playing my Amarr character more. These discussions just do not happen anymore for Caldari (or Gallente, for that matter). Hmm...maybe I should rethink which accounts I keep active.

[Aedre Lafisques]

You guys are making me want to start playing my Amarr character more. These discussions just do not happen anymore for Caldari (or Gallente, for that matter). Hmm...maybe I should rethink which accounts I keep active.

I noticed that 'culture' like this seemed particularly thin for/in the Gallente RP (which might be why Intaki RP appears to be fine), which makes it pretty hard to be someone that has any traditionalism - or discussions like this, or is 'past' traditionalism, or any stance at all...

I'm gonna get out before I derail the thread, since the Amarr discussion is neat (and on topic), but I'll just leave this here with you that it bugs me as well that Gallente culture itself gets passed over the certain specific way it does.    CCP's given us some reasonably exotic hints but I think generally, people (including, possibly, CCP themselves) easily fall into the same simplified traps. More elaborate PF would help us out, but they're concentrating on their current thing at the moment, rather than fleshing out the 'ordinary'. (Though Source had a bit more to say at least, and that was recent) If that's all they have time to do then I guess that just falls to us, which is its own kind of fun if they're gonna leave it to us then.

I wrote this long rant this one time about the above, but I never posted it because ffff-- ahh whatever. It was good to think it through though. ...Then I wrote something based on this http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=604.0 because I wasn't actually done being annoyed apparently /laugh 
I never posted that either, ...but I guess if people are willing to leave Gallente RP/never join it in the first place because of the above, it can't hurt at this point... ?

/rolls back into lurkmode

[Lyn Farel]

To find stuff about the true gallente culture you have to really look for it since CCP just spends its time telling "it's gallente melting pot so it can be anything so I won't go into any details". But you have a few hard facts on Garoun culture, etc, and more generally the gallente demographics articles, which also tell a bit about the Mannar and the likes.

But eventually there is a lot about political activism, idealist groups and overall a very agitated/boiling society that form a stark contrast with the pompous calm and austerity of the Amarr.

Ah and there are also the article on the different cities in gallente space (alpha, beta, gamma, etc), which is probably the most awesomesauce article that came to world build the gallente, and even one of the most awesomesauce PF article ever. It tells a lot more than what it seems to tell about gallente society, with broad strokes giving a nice overview of what can be found inside.

[Jikahr]

[/quote] I wrote this long rant this one time about the above, but I never posted it because ffff-- ahh whatever. It was good to think it through though. ...Then I wrote something based on this http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=604.0 because I wasn't actually done being annoyed apparently /laugh 
I never posted that either, ...but I guess if people are willing to leave Gallente RP/never join it in the first place because of the above, it can't hurt at this point... ?

/rolls back into lurkmode
[/quote]

Wow, that Pantheon of Gods is awesome! I love the names, and it's interesting that they are named after the moons of Gallente Prime.

There was another poster who mentioned the Chinese 'helpful spirits' and 'hurtful daemons'. I think that would fit in well with Gallente culture as well.

I tend to think of the Gallente as being 'The Jetsons' as well as 'Space Hippies'.

As it is, the way I think of Gallente culture is, in a word 'French'.

Prime fiction says that the Gallente culture was started by Frenchmen from Tau Ceti, so it's pretty hard for me not to lump the Gallente into whatever stereotypes/ tropes I might personally have about IRL French culture.

Which for me means the movie 'Barbarella' and Mobius (Jean Giraud)& Jorodowsky's graphic novel 'The Incal.'

I'm rather fond of Fonda, and so a seedy society of scantily clad women, hedonism and drugs seems like a natural fit if somewhat cliche rendition of Gallente society.

If you are unfamiliar, the story and the artwork of the Incal light is a little long and well....'mind blowing'.

The Techno-priests were pretty interesting to me, and perhaps part of my reason for gravitating to Amarr. I also tend to think of the Amarrians as being like the Necromongers from 'The Chronicles of Riddick'.

http://www.pinterest.com/andrewblodgett/art-moebius/

The story of the Incal light revolves around John DiFool, a lazy loser who likes to smoke cigars and have sex with robots. He discovers/ receives the Incal light, and suddenly becomes the most wanted/ hunted man in the Galaxy.

This is also how I picture Gallente culture. They are the most intellectual of the four factions. The Amarrians are too rigid, the Caldari too venal, the Minmatar too emotion driven to develop the facilities of sombre and reflective free thought.

As a Democratic society, they have a problem with stirring their own citizens out of hedonism and apathy. More people would rather be Art history majors than capsuleers.

However, as pontificating intellectuals the Gallente would also excel at things such as science, exploration, and especially archaeology...with archaeology/ wormholes/ relics being a huge thing in EVE right now.

John DiFool's discovery of the Incal light is a part of the mythic cycle of Joseph Campbell's 'monomyth', the idea that the myths and stories of all cultures have one common root. Hollywood certainly uses this idea of the monomyth, which is especially noticeable in Star Wars.

In DiFool's case, he starts out as the 'reluctant hero'. If one lives a life of luxury in Gallente society, where is the motivation to change? The discovery of the Incal light is the 'call to adventure', which he refuses, then accepts, etc.

http://changingminds.org/disciplines/storytelling/plots/hero_journey/hero_journey.htm

In my mind at least, a Gallente archaeologist who discovered something that would unhinge Amarrian society (i.e. the Apocrypha) would suddenly be the most talked about/ admired/ despised person in EVE. Well, at least in the sense of roleplay.

Here is the Metabaron, one of the characters from Jodorowsky's story 'The Incal'. The character reminds me a lot of the Khanid cyberknights, which Silas just wrote an extensive piece about. The Metabarons are a little more like Samurai rather than European Knights, but this works in well when one considers that the Caldari have a Japanese-esque culture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabarons

Oh yes, and this is pretty much how I picture all of EVE.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4Vkyzrs1Fk

[Silver Night]

[mod]Just a split from Naup's thread for the Hell discussion.[/mod]

[Nicoletta Mithra]

A) "Universal Catholic Church"
Nowhere does the PF say that or even indicate as much as the Universal Catholic Church having anything to do with the Roman Catholic Church. There is no Universal Catholic Church IRL and actually the name in itself is a bit weird (given that catholic pretty much means 'universal'; so it's the "universal 'universal' church").

There is no reason whatsoever given explicitly by PF to assume that Amarr religion developed from Roman Catholicism or any other Abrahamic religion.

B) The Concept of Hell in Amarr religion
PF is kind'a unclear on this and can be interpreted to be rather divided in regard to whether Hell exists or not in Amarr reliogion.

Still, I think it is reasonable to try to interprete PF in a way that reconciles different snippets maximally. If one tries that, then it is reasonable to assume - in my opinion - that there is metaphorical language involved in descriptions of Hell. If one accepts that assumption, then it is not hard to accept that Hell is talked about - metaphorically - as a place of 'fire and brimstone', while Amarr still maintain that it doesn't really have 'existence': Meaning that Hell isn't something that is, but rather something that is not - a state of deficiency or deficient state. Hell is not nor can it be positively defined then, but rather can only be defined in relation to its antonym 'Paradise' and then pointing out were hell lacks qualities of 'paradise'.

This would mean there are two different ways of talking about Hell in Amarr religion: A metaphorical one that talks about Hell as if it is something that exists, e.g. an actual place with certain physical features on the one hand. On the other hand there would be a more philosophical way which would identify Hell as something that doesn't exists ontologically, but which can be pointed out by comparing an imperfect state to the ideal.

Just my two cents.

[Vizage]

Personally speaking I like the fact that the PF is vague about this concept.  Whether intentional or not I think this allows for a breadth of interpretations a la literalist and figurative interpretations much like in current Christian debate circles.

The advantage of course being that here it creates content and doesn't actually gamble our immortal souls (I kid.)

It allows characters like Nauplius to channel Wesboro-esque fire and brim stone to exist in the same world as more critical theologians like Nico for example.

And more importantly it allows for a debate like this to happen IC'ly instead of backstage.

[Lyn Farel]

Isn't it the Unified Catholic Church ?

On the other hand there would be a more philosophical way which would identify Hell as something that doesn't exists ontologically, but which can be pointed out by comparing an imperfect state to the ideal.

I had difficulties to tell exactly that as simply as it is.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Isn't it the Unified Catholic Church ?

True, actually makes more sense like that, too! (And points to some religious unification movement on Terra, of which extent we are left in the dark - as well as who exactly was 'unified' here.)

P.S.:

It's also funny how many RL believers play Amarr characters.

I don't think that 'believers' make up a bigger percentage of Amarr than Caldari or gallente/Matari players. Actually, I see a lot of neopagans in the Matari department. What is different is - especially in the RP community, I suppose - whether 'believers' are willing to voice and stand up in regard to their beliefs. If you play Amarr and are practicing Christian, for example, you will be confronted with a lot of people conflating Amarr religion and Christianity - aka 'space catholicism'. Chances are high that if you're a Christian, that this will impinge on your sensibilities. If you aren't stepping up there, then, there's little possibility to vent the frustration and get things straight, I guess.

If you're a Christain and play, say, a Caldari you just stay away from the bunch that is anti-religious and do you thing. No need to get public with you beliefs on the internet, there, really.

[Lyn Farel]

Oh well, it's more a personal experience that has shown that most Amarr players I knew are RL believers. But then, I didn't ask to players of other factions though. I tend to forget that atheists are actually a small minority in the world.