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[Lyn Farel]

Hello there,

Ok, time for maybe a dumb question first, but have any of you any work experience in a foreign country, different of your own ? And even more, a country where english is not the local language (like iceland for example, as some may have heard of it from CCP employees  ) ? I would really appreciate advice, any kind that anyone could give, be it either tips, don't do-s, anecdotes, how you manage to settle at first, whatever...

I am currently considering the option in itself (have been since I finished my studies actually, but more now than ever), and find it appealing but also completely intimidating/scary to say the least... But it costs nothing to ask. Backstage may not the best place for that kind of questions, but a place I can relate to.

That would be very valuable to me as to get a clearer picture, hear different experiences maybe, and make my mind eventually.

Thanks in advance for those that might have answers !

[Odelya]

I’ve worked in Israel for a year and had extended stays in Turkey, Egypt and especially Iran, where I lived for over two years. Learning and speaking the language was part of being there, because it is needed for what I do. Each country was different, and any advice I’d give (or not give) does heavily depend on the country where you are going. I don’t know how specific you want to be, so...

[Lyn Farel]

I'm not really sure. It is just that opportunities are not many and the industry is rather small. Which is also why I must be prepared to think about working somewhere else.

So even if I wanted I couldn't really be more specific at the moment...

[orange]

I think it really depends on where you are trying to work.

Clearly, if you are already familiar with the language and culture to some degree, it more closely approximates moving within your own nation.  At the same time, I can see moving from Paris to Amsterdam or London being less of a change than moving to Marseilles (cultural differences).  In the North America a similar idea would be between Boston and Montreal vs Boston and Atlanta (and that does not even get into West Coast vs East Coast).

But maybe you are talking about somewhere outside of Europe/North America entirely, in which case I would still say it varies.

What is the industry and where are you considering?

[Lyn Farel]

@Odelya : I was mostly wondering if you could tell how you managed to do it, what kind of difficulties you met, the most important things for you in relation to that, etc ? If I may ask of course. I find it interesting.


@Orange : Well in the case of Marseilles (besides the fact it has become a real shithole), it's still a lot closer to Paris than London or Amsterdam will ever be in terms of culture and language. It's french no matter what, like everywhere in the country. Differences are tiny and mostly tied to traditions and climate/seasons. But I see your point.

I'm still in the video game industry, where the number of studios is not that big, where also most of them collapse after their first title, and most of titles also are not profitable. As much as I can tell, I really wouldn't know yet where to look if I were to look for something, since it mostly depends on the offered opportunities at every moment that must fit to my qualifications and job, and that added to the fact that it's an overcrowded market with very few offers and very few places, it could be literally everywhere. Of course though, I guess that the most of opportunities could probably be found in North America, either Canada or the US probably. Could also be in Northern Europe like Scandinavia.

In the case of non english countries, I find it rather scary mostly due to the language, even if the company speaks in english (won't apply for one that doesn't...). Well, I mean, having to live your everyday life without knowing the local language seems rather... harsh.

In the case of the US and Canada it's more a... problem with the social system I guess. It really irks me the wrong way.

Keep in mind that i'm just asking out of curiosity and interest more than a real need at the moment. I just feel that it could come to that someday... Well to say the least, you generally don't feel really safe in any studio, be it in good shape (financially) or not. I also think that being able to apply in other countries as well can dramatically improve your chances to continue working on something that you like, or even just give you a job.

I was not very specific because it was really more of a generic question of interest to gather different experiences ?

[Odelya]

In Israel where is worked (and have some family and friends) it was naturally very easy. I went to work, got along with the people there and that’s pretty much it—on the weekends I hung out in Tel Aviv or travelled. I also lived in a shared flat, so my social environment was pretty vital. Same thing in Egypt, which in addition has a large expat community that sticks together and introduces you to special places where you’ll meet new people. After visiting the philharmonic orchestra you suddenly sit in a bar with some of the musicians. But this is very specific to Egypt and won’t probably happen in London or Amsterdam, there you’ll just be “another foreigner” and not a “new one,” who gets recognised.

But considering that most of the software companies won’t be in Tehran or Cairo, but in European cities, my experience is pretty much useless for you.

P.S.: I am German and I share what Michel Houellebecq said about them once. He wrote that Germans and Turks living in Germany share a particular feelings towards Germany: While they “live” somewhere else (during holidays), Germany is a dark place of working. This has a certain truth and every time when I leave for somewhere in the Middle East, my heart rejoices. 

[orange]

I think understanding the industry you intend to be in/are familiar with is important.  It sets the tone.

My father was stationed in Europe for about half of my childhood.  For most of it we were not near the major American bases in southwestern Germany, but still effectively lived in a military culture via the NATO units at which my father was assigned vs the local culture.  I may have been the one to integrate the most when I attended local schools.

I think industry can play a major part in the culture you interact with day-to-day, outside of the service industries which interact with the cultural baseline daily.

For example, imagine shifting industries to aerospace in Toulouse vs moving to Quebec and getting a job with Ubisoft.

I think that kind of cultural shift in work environment would be as challenging as moving between various western countries, but staying in the same industry.

[Lyn Farel]

Duh, I forgot to mention the UK too above, besides north America. It's a major actor in video games too. UK could be easier to acclimate to (except for the food /hides).

In Israel where is worked (and have some family and friends) it was naturally very easy. I went to work, got along with the people there and that’s pretty much it—on the weekends I hung out in Tel Aviv or travelled. I also lived in a shared flat, so my social environment was pretty vital. Same thing in Egypt, which in addition has a large expat community that sticks together and introduces you to special places where you’ll meet new people. After visiting the philharmonic orchestra you suddenly sit in a bar with some of the musicians. But this is very specific to Egypt and won’t probably happen in London or Amsterdam, there you’ll just be “another foreigner” and not a “new one,” who gets recognised.

But considering that most of the software companies won’t be in Tehran or Cairo, but in European cities, my experience is pretty much useless for you.

P.S.: I am German and I share what Michel Houellebecq said about them once. He wrote that Germans and Turks living in Germany share a particular feelings towards Germany: While they “live” somewhere else (during holidays), Germany is a dark place of working. This has a certain truth and every time when I leave for somewhere in the Middle East, my heart rejoices.

Thanks ! That's actually something I was looking for. It may not be applicable to every country in its specifics, but it still points to the importance of having people to show you around no ? Be it coworkers or acquaintances...

I think understanding the industry you intend to be in/are familiar with is important.  It sets the tone.

My father was stationed in Europe for about half of my childhood.  For most of it we were not near the major American bases in southwestern Germany, but still effectively lived in a military culture via the NATO units at which my father was assigned vs the local culture.  I may have been the one to integrate the most when I attended local schools.

I think industry can play a major part in the culture you interact with day-to-day, outside of the service industries which interact with the cultural baseline daily.

For example, imagine shifting industries to aerospace in Toulouse vs moving to Quebec and getting a job with Ubisoft.

I think that kind of cultural shift in work environment would be as challenging as moving between various western countries, but staying in the same industry.

Well at least I'll probably stick to the same industry, that's already something. But I see what you mean.

[Nmaro Makari]

Duh, I forgot to mention the UK too above, besides north America. It's a major actor in video games too. UK could be easier to acclimate to (except for the food /hides).

GAZE UPON THE MADNESS AND WEEP

[Nmaro Makari]

In a serious answer to the question though, I know for a fact from living there that Nottingham has a small but significant gaming industry. One of Crytek's main offices is here, as well as hosting Game City festival this November.

[Zenariae]

It isn’t a dumb question at all especially if you’re considering a lengthy stay away somewhere as a non-tourist. As I’ve already mentioned in my PM to you I’ve spent 5+ years living and working in a foreign, non-english speaking environment. If your stay is going to be longer than 6 months my key piece of advice to you is to be aware of culture shock and reacting negatively to your new environment and letting it affect your enjoyment of the experience, and it can happen to you even in another English speaking country. As an example to you, English is also spoken in South Africa but’s it’s a very different kettle of fish culturally to say, Australia.
 
In a non-English speaking country not being able to communicate with the locals is probably your single most isolating factor, especially if you plan on travelling alone. So, making an effort to learn the local language to at least a basic level will lessen your long-term difficulties and enrich your overall experience. As someone else has mentioned in this thread the social environment is very important so you’ll find people a lot warmer and more helpful if you try to connect with them in their own language, however broken and badly you speak it.

It pays to know something about the country’s recent history and the sort of current issues they have. Being culturally aware will also help you work through any confronting reactions you may have towards the place and you will react because in spite of whatever similarities you may feel or perceive you have culturally there will also be a lot of differences.  Food being a major example! Use the expat community (if there is one) to help you connect with fellow countrymen, some of them may be going through the same thing, but be sparing in its use. When I was teaching I saw a lot of teacher colleagues disappear into the expat community because it was an easy fallback into the familiar, never to emerge or enjoy their experience of a new country to the fullest. They usually went home after less than a year quite dissatisfied and unfulfilled by their time abroad. I know nothing about the industry you’re working in but I would still suggest immersing yourself in the foreign culture rather than trying to look for familiar things. You can always go home for a break or look into another country if you really don’t like it after all things considered.

Otherwise I would say to you go for it! It could potentially offer pathways and life-defining experiences you never expected. Good luck with your eventual decisions and enjoy! 

[Lyn Farel]

Thank you for sharing, it is very helpful =)

[Aedre Lafisques]

A lot of people I know have worked abroad. My sister-in-law has worked in Vietnam for years now, and several friends of mine have lived in different parts of Japan and Asia through the Jet program. While they were there, I was able to visit and talk to both locals in villages and other foreign ex-pats about the whole thing. Even though this is Asia, and not really what you're looking at, I think culture shock is the same the world over. I used to get horrible cultureshock visiting in-laws in New York. It was much, much more upsetting for me going to something that looks similar and English but is completely different than travelling to Asia and expecting things to be pretty different armed only with some extremely basic reading skills (which went a lot further than knowing how to speak, actually). The people in Asia expected me to be different, too, and that probably helped. New Yorkers just loudly demand to know why you're such an asshole all the time. GOD. (Meanwhile, in Japan, I got stopped and complimented on my politeness all the time, so I have no idea what is happening here, but it's kind of a good example of not taking things too personally either way when travelling around. There's not a lot you can do.)

I think final destination is a big factor - big cities are more comfortable to be in. But I'm from Montreal, a small big city. Perhaps going from small town to small town is similarly easy too? I think big cities, however, are more fundamentally multicultural, even if it's not visibly apparent. It's an attitude. It might have been from being in a village for so long, but visiting Seoul felt just like being at home again - I even saw a broadway play (and it was extremely good!).

I was really disappointed in the way some people talked about their stay in Japan and Vietnam amongst some of the people I talked to. Things are very different there and instead of asking questions, sometimes people just say, 'well people are crazy over here so who knows?'. By the end of my short stay, I was telling them why things were. You have to be curious, or you're going to get really burned out and jaded about why things have to be so different.

A lot of the answers I got when I did ask locals were completely reasonable even if I wouldn't have thought of something as convenient at first. I can't think of a great example, but I was totally surprised by a toilet that had a sink on the back part, that ran when you flushed the toilet. It's actually a great water saver not to run a separate sink while there's already water going. But it's a little weird to wash your hands in what you have in your mind as toilet water at first. Laughing to yourself and saying 'oh, okay, cool,' keeps you going when every day things suddenly become strange. Korea had bathrooms that were inside their showers. The showerhead would just be right there, and everything in the room (including toiletries and whatever else) would get wet. There wasn't any mildew and I still can't figure out how, since things were wet all the time. Not having any resistances to these experiences is key, but it also helps to have someone to show you around a little bit. Ask locals questions, too. Most places welcome that, sometimes the more into the country you go. I had several locals drive me around when I was in Japan. It was sort of terrifying jumping into cars with strangers, but the community is just so small there, it would be really impolite not to accept the generosity of someone closing their restaurant just to show me something. You have to adjust your experiences to what the people around you expect.

I've also had to show around people new to Quebec, too, which is the other side, often people from Toronto or New York, which are actually really close by. It's easy to be excited when someone asks you about things. It's your home, so you're passionate about it. I would hope most people feel that way towards 'foreigners'. People don't expect Quebec to be as different as it really is, (even the english people call corner stores 'deps', so that's always a fumbling explanation that gets done early) and Montreal is quite mild. It's been getting better lately, but there's as many things not to be proud of as there is to be, and that's part of what makes it so colourful and strange. It's hard to get that across in one go to someone visiting, and I bet a lot of places struggle with that.

If you ask a question someone doesn't know the answer to, don't assume that 'nobody knows then'. Just ask somebody else. I don't know things about my city because I live here, and it's not that famous (so it doesn't come up on TV, etc.). Sometimes when you live in a place, there's stuff you don't question/think about/look at. I've both done that myself and had that done to me in Japan. There were quite a few foods where I started an argument about what was even in it! I love showing tourists around because I get to see stuff I 'don't have time' for in daily life.

So, those are just my experiences. I haven't been to Europe at all yet, there's no money left now haha - But travelling to somewhere strange and getting involved requires a certain kind of bravery, I think, but it shouldn't be too hard for an EVE player. I think the mentality has to be pretty similar. The HUD is half-useless and the terminology and attitudes are strange at first. You have to really want it, and you have to talk to people to get used to the words you should know, and the mindset you need to have for that place, make a lot of noob mistakes and think about how you can adapt better - rather than "EVE sucks because it refuses to passively help me". EVE cultureshocks everyone that steps into it. The people who don't stay are the people that couldn't penetrate it; couldn't ask the right questions or meet the right people, in a lot of cases. You're looking to join a good corp, so maybe you can ask the companies you want to work for a few questions about how they handle international employees! Some places will help you find a convenient home and set you up, that kind of thing. You want to know you're moving into a neighborhood that isn't secretly awful, for example.

Come to Montreal! We have games! ; j /recruit

[Lyn Farel]

Nice ! That's what I was looking for.

Yeah of course, Montreal is a big possibility. I'm just having a lot of personal negatives about North America. Though I have an uncle in the philharmonic orchestra here, which is rather good if I ever look to move someday...

[Natalcya Katla]

It doesn't deal with the gaming industry in particular, but here's a good blog about being a French expatriate in Scandinavia (and Norway in particular): http://afroginthefjord.com/