Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Nmaro Makari]

Ah, realism, bible of the hipster IR student wanting to appear to have the answer to everything.

[Lyn Farel]

I didn't speak about that school. I spoke about the Al Aqsa hospital. You have no proof for this one, absolutely none. You have been only making wide assumptions since the beginning.

I am rarely inclined to trust, listen to people that usually start their sentences by "it's a well known fact that" while linking a single occurrence of something happening and making generalities out of it. I have no doubt that you can find some other examples as well, but that will hardly cover most of those cases. You are only using specific examples and presenting them as universal truths.

That's a slippery slope, and a dangerous one at that.

[Vizage]

As long as Hamas puts missiles in hospitals, hospitals are going to get bombed. 

Who said there were missiles in that hospital ? Do you have even proofs of what you are claiming ?

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/20/official-rockets-found-in-unrwa-gaza-school-returned-to-hamas/
It is a well known fact that Hamas locates weapons at locations such as schools and hospitals.  The above is a school, but there have been other instances of using hospitals.  That way, when Israel attacks the sites, Hamas claims atrocity.

The site you've linked here is pretty questionable. Simply going to its front page and you can see the slant it's taking.

[Vizage]

Ah, realism, bible of the hipster IR student wanting to appear to have the answer to everything.

A political philosophy almost as resoundingly rejected as Neo-Con theory post Iraq 2010

[Alizabeth]

Well, you're even more incorrect.  It was not bombed, but rather hit by direct fire from IDF tanks.  So, the IDF was actually looking at what they were shooting at.  Twelve rounds total.  That's some fucking precision work right there.  Israel asserts that Hamas was using the hospital (or the area nearby) to store AT rockets.  The easy thing to do would be to drop a JDAM (or whatever the IDF uses) from 30000 feet and be done with it.  Instead, they were cognizant of civilian causalities and put their own troops in the line of fire to avoid as much collateral damage as possible.

Also, forget the slant.  Who cares; it was just the first link that came up in google.  No one is denying that there were rockets in a school.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Scagga, I'm not going to disagree that things went wrong on the israeli side, but again, you're oversimplifying there in my opinion. I won't go through what you said point by point to show that in each case the Palestinians had a share of responsibility for things not going as they ideally should, but I'm sure if you think about it you will see that on your own. I can only repeat my mantra:

You need two sides that want to make peace and work for it to have it. Placing blame on just one side is oversimplyfying the situation and so is the idea that you even can figure out who is more to blame for it.

[Vizage]

Also, forget the slant.  Who cares; it was just the first link that came up in google.  No one is denying that there were rockets in a school.

That's kinda the point though. If you provide credible sources it's easier to believe such claims. It's much more about debate etiquette than anything else.

Also twelve tank shells into a known school does not sound "precise" by any means, a bomb is worse for sure, but neither are "precise."

[Vincent Pryce]

To both sides of the conflict:

[Alizabeth]

Also, forget the slant.  Who cares; it was just the first link that came up in google.  No one is denying that there were rockets in a school.

That's kinda the point though. If you provide credible sources it's easier to believe such claims. It's much more about debate etiquette than anything else.

Also twelve tank shells into a known school does not sound "precise" by any means, a bomb is worse for sure, but neither are "precise."

http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-strongly-condemns-placement-rockets-school
Also, generally speaking, if people use correct grammar and spelling, it's easier to take them seriously.  Since, apparently, debate etiquette is more important than facts, now.

As for your comment on main tank rounds, I am going to assume that you are a civilian with absolutely no first hand experience.  One does not get much more precise than a main tank round.  The only thing I can think of off hand would be to walk up and use a satchel charge.  You can debate politics and worldviews all you want, but when it comes to weapons and tactics, I am as close to an expert as you are going to get on these boards. 
Modern main tank guns are capable of routine first round hits at over four km away, while moving, on a target about the size of the hood of a midsized sedan.  Yes, they are precise.

[Vizage]

Also, forget the slant.  Who cares; it was just the first link that came up in google.  No one is denying that there were rockets in a school.

That's kinda the point though. If you provide credible sources it's easier to believe such claims. It's much more about debate etiquette than anything else.

Also twelve tank shells into a known school does not sound "precise" by any means, a bomb is worse for sure, but neither are "precise."

http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-strongly-condemns-placement-rockets-school
Also, generally speaking, if people use correct grammar and spelling, it's easier to take them seriously.  Since, apparently, debate etiquette is more important than facts, now.

As for your comment on main tank rounds, I am going to assume that you are a civilian with absolutely no first hand experience.  One does not get much more precise than a main tank round.  The only thing I can think of off hand would be to walk up and use a satchel charge.  You can debate politics and worldviews all you want, but when it comes to weapons and tactics, I am as close to an expert as you are going to get on these boards. 
Modern main tank guns are capable of routine first round hits at over four km away, while moving, on a target about the size of the hood of a midsized sedan.  Yes, they are precise.

Ad Hominims aside, did you take the time to actually read that article? It states that this was the first time this has ever happened quite openly on the page. Which kinda debunks Every other time they have hit hospitals or schools. Furthermore the schools were "vacant" so there goes your "human shield" argument as well.

Next time you feel like snapping at someone simply for asking for proper citation, make sure you actually read what you cite, hmm?

[Esna Pitoojee]

While it's great to see someone providing citations for their claims for once, I hate to say this Esna, but that Battle to Tel Hai page is in serious need of proper citation. It contradicts itself in its "Significance" subheadings and somewhere along the way I read "Zions mainstream historiography." Words like that almost immediately cause a knee jerk reaction of skepticism for me at least.

Fair enough; I was pulling examples to demonstrate that the conflict existed long before 1948.

In my opinion, here's a basic outline of what needs to happen for things to calm down:

Palestinians:
- Stop shooting rockets, mortars, etc. Just, stop. It hasn't helped, isn't helping, and won't help. So long as this keeps up, nothing is going to go anywhere.
- Similarly, crossborder raids and attacks on entry points need to end. Offensive activity is a nonstarter for any kind of peace process.
- Stop glamorizing, glorifying, and otherwise promoting acts of violence against a civilian population and those who perform them. Similarly, stop vilifying Israel and Israelis in education and media. If you continue to present those who commit such attacks as doing great and noble deeds against a universally vicious and bestial enemy - surprise, things will keep going.
- Form a joint co-operative committee to assist in the management of historical and religiously significant sites in the West Bank, including access for Israelis to these sites.

Israel:
- Get your hardliners under control. If you desire peace on an equal footing, you need to control those who would go out to stir up shit with the Palestinians. If that means deploying the police, do it. If that means relocating people, do it. Make an active and visible effort to prevent conflict.
- In response for a complete and total cessation of artillery fire from Gaza, begin opening borders to increased traffic and transport. Lift travel limitations where reasonably possible.
- Get to work on that joint antiquities committee to provide a joint mutual force for management of religiously significant sites in both areas. This means continuing to provide open access to the al-Aqsa mosque (something they fortunately do already).

Finally, settlements. The big doozy. Here's the thing: I'm not actually against settlements. In fact, I think possibly the best hope for the region is in settlements. There are plenty of examples of Israelis and Palestinians working together in the West Bank, and this kind of continued cooperation should be heavily promoted. In the future, settlements should be planned for both sides with an eye towards promoting cooperation and peaceful neighbors. If this means limiting settlement to those with a stated interest in that, then do it - on both sides.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Vince about summed up my thoughts on it. 

[Vizage]

Furthermore, while your knowledge of military hardware is quite impressive I find myself curious as to how you can think shooting tank rounds at rocket caches is somehow more precise than a bomb disposal team? The IDF has more than enough manpower to roll up and conduct a proper explosive disposal operation instead.

[orange]

The easy thing to do would be to drop a JDAM (or whatever the IDF uses) from 30000 feet and be done with it.

Modern main tank guns are capable of routine first round hits at over four km away, while moving, on a target about the size of the hood of a midsized sedan.

The JDAM (or LGB) from 30,000 feet can also be that precise.  It is however more challenging for a JDAM (or LGB) to hit a vertical plane vs a horizontal plane.

Furthermore, while your knowledge of military hardware is quite impressive I find myself curious as to how you can think shooting tank rounds at rocket caches is somehow more precise than a bomb disposal team? The IDF has more than enough manpower to roll up and conduct a proper explosive disposal operation instead.

Bomb disposal teams are useful when the ordnance cache is undefended and the surrounding area relatively secure.

An attempt to 1) enter an unfriendly building, 2) clear the building of hostiles, 3) deal with a potentially large cache of AT-weapons is likely to get a large number of the defenders killed and possibly also result in the deaths of the EOD** team and their escort.  In this case, defense includes non-uniformed combatants* in surrounding civilian structures with anti-personnel weapons.

*These individuals blend in with the civilian population.  The Geneva Convention is very clear on how to treat fellow uniformed combatants.  How to treat non-uniformed combatants is less clear.

**The EDO team is also having to deal with the unexploded ordinance in friendly territory.

[Alizabeth]

Furthermore, while your knowledge of military hardware is quite impressive I find myself curious as to how you can think shooting tank rounds at rocket caches is somehow more precise than a bomb disposal team? The IDF has more than enough manpower to roll up and conduct a proper explosive disposal operation instead.

I didn't say that it was more precise.  I said EOD is the only thing that I could think of off hand more precise.
We don't actually know that EOD was a viable option.  There is actual combat happening in Gaza.  We don't know if there were enemy fighters making use of the cache, or any huge number of variables.  The Merkava is capable of carrying personnel in the rear; it's entirely possible they were trying to make their way to the hospital for an EOD team to dispose of the rockets with a controlled blast.  Then again, they might not have.  EOD might not have been available.  I'm not going to speculate.
In any military operation, the enemy gets a say.  The use of main tank rounds was probably the best the IDF could do.

Also, I know a lot less about air power than ground weapons, but I was under the impression that the accuracy of a JDAM was about five meters.  Which is really really good, but still, not anywhere close to a main tank gun.
Edit again:
Orange has a good point that EOD is also in Israel dealing with the two thousand rockets that have been shot at Israel since this thing kicked off.  EOD is a demanding job and there are not that many EOD teams.  When I was in Iraq, the wait time for EOD was usually a few hours, so yes, there is that.

[Vikarion]

Also twelve tank shells into a known school does not sound "precise" by any means, a bomb is worse for sure, but neither are "precise."

Most of us tend to think of tank cannons of being like their WW2 versions: sometimes accurate, sometimes not. A main gun on a tank today is pretty damn close to being more accurate than some rifles, over much further distance. So, yeah. I dunno if firing into a school is all that great, but they hit what they aimed at.

Of course, you'd have to pay me a HELL of a lot of money to do EOD on a Hamas-stockpiled collection of munitions, whether you thought it was booby-trapped or not.