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[Louella Dougans]

were they Highlanders, Aberdonians, Dundonians, or what ?

[Mizhara]

I've never known them to identify themselves as other than Scots when asked, so I wouldn't know. They worked on an LNG plant on an island up here, living there with the rest of us. My view of Scotland is largely entirely based on them, and they were just beyond awesome people.

[Louella Dougans]

well you see, it's like this.

Tartan, kilts, bagpipes, caber tossing are all a highlander thing.
Speaking Gaelic is a highland and western island thing.
Haggis may originally be a Norse thing.
Burns poetry is a lowland thing.
the Doric is a north-east thing.

The highlanders play shinty instead of football, so shouting at the television when the footballs on isn't a thing common to all the people of Scotland.

There are a number of Scottish identities, but there isn't A Scottish identity. There isn't anything, other than being born within somewhat arbitrary geographical boundaries, that all the people of Scotland have in common.

[Mizhara]

That's like saying Nordlendinger doesn't have a Norwegian identity. Every country has different regional features and cultural influxes from different sources, but we still have a national identity. Dismissing Scottish identity like that is rather disrespectful.

[Louella Dougans]

Well then, tell me what I have in common with a Gaelic speaking Highlander.

[Louella Dougans]

In other news:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/19/russia-calls-foul-scottish-referendum

Russia has said the conduct of the Scottish referendum "did not meet international standards", with its observers complaining the count took place in rooms that were too big and that the procedure was badly flawed.

In an apparent attempt to mirror persistent western criticism of Russia's own elections, Igor Borisov – an accredited observer – said the poll failed to meet basic international norms.

Borisov and three other Russians arrived in Edinburgh on Wednesday evening, the state news agency Ria Novosti reported. The team from Moscow's Public Institute of Suffrage watched voting take place in the Scottish capital and the surrounding area. It also met with Scottish politicians, voters and representatives from non-governmental organisations, Ria said.

Borisov said he was unimpressed by what he saw. He said the room where he watched the count on Thursday night was a cavernous "aircraft hangar" next to an airfield. It was difficult to see what was going on, he said, adding: "The hangar is approximately 100m by 300m. There are tables, with voting papers stacked upon them, but the observers are stuck around the perimeter. Even if you want to, it's impossible to tell what's happening. It's also unclear where the boxes with ballot papers come from."

Borisov said the US state department, the UK and other western countries loudly hectored the Kremlin about Russia's supposed democratic deficiencies. But in this instance, he said, London and Edinburgh had not "fully met" the requirements of a proper referendum.

"Nobody was interested in who was bringing in the voting slips. There were no stamps or signatures as the bulletins were handed over," he said.

Supporters of the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, had been fervently hoping for a yes vote. Some Russian nationalists had even fixed yes badges to their Twitter profiles, with one –Konstantin Rykov – adding a "Mc" to the front of his Cyrillic surname. (The badge and "Mc" had disappeared by Friday morning). The Kremlin apparently saw Scottish independence as a way of justifying its own hasty annexation of Crimea in March, following a "referendum" conducted in just three weeks and condemned by the west, as armed Russian forces and irregulars swarmed over the Crimean peninsula. Moscow also felt that a yes vote would weaken the UK and bring to power a post-independence Scottish government more amenable to Moscow's wishes. Alex Salmond, Scotland's first minister, expressed qualified admiration for President Putin in an interview with GQ in March.

The Kremlin propaganda channel RT, meanwhile, speculated that the result might have been rigged and expressed surprise at the "North Korean" levels of turnout.

Afshin Rattansi, the presenter of RT's Going Underground show, said there were "international considerations", such as the UK's nuclear deterrent, which had affected the outcome. He said: "With the vote as close as this, with the mainstream media on one side, with a massive amount of people from Westminster running up to beg Scotland the other way, and certain recounts in certain bits of the poll, which way did the vote go, really?"

He added: "It is normally the sort of turnout you would expect in North Korea. Usually media here would go 'we don't believe it. How can it be nearly 90%?'".

And then suddenly Tu-95s!

[Mizhara]

Well then, tell me what I have in common with a Gaelic speaking Highlander.

The same thing I do with a Sami. Besides, it's not your place to erase an entire national identity because you don't share it. If that Gaelic speaking Highlander identify as a Scot, then there's a national identity. That guy? He's got a whole lot of friends who do the same, all over Scotland. Dismissing the national identity is an odd way of going about things.

[Silas Vitalia]

The thing with cultural identities is that it is the right of the people claiming them to define them, not outsiders

[Mizhara]

I agree, which is why I went by what I was told by the Scots I know. Maybe they're no true scotsmen, but I'll take their word for it.

[Lyn Farel]

Well I typed a wall of text about the case of Brittany, that like Scotland is part of the 6 celtic nations and share a similar history towards a greater power, and how their stance turned out to become now quite different to their Scottish old bros due to the difference in environment... And how it is completely different to the case of the Danes too but...

Whatever. If people want their independence and do not recognize themselves in the ruling nation identity, fine, I couldn't say I can blame them... I just don't comprehend their feeling.

And then what do you make of the others ?

[Louella Dougans]

The thing with cultural identities is that it is the right of the people claiming them to define them, not outsiders

obviously I, being scottish, am wrong and cannot possibly know anything about there not being a common scottish cultural identity, because obviously I know nothing, and Mizhara is right because of having talked to some dudes this one time.

[Kala]

Besides, it's not your place to erase an entire national identity because you don't share it.

Uhm.  I dunno, I think being a Scot, it kind of is her place.  Certainly more than mine.
(Until another Scot comes and contests it, ofc - but then it's still both of their places).

But yeah.  She has the right to talk about her own country, I would've thought...?
Whether that echoes your ideas of a Scottish national identity or not?

[Ibrahim Tash-Murkon]

The No True Scotsmen thing that's happening tickles the hell out of me.

[Louella Dougans]

The No True Scotsmen thing that's happening tickles the hell out of me.

talk to Mizhara then. They're the expert on knowing who is Scottish. Not me.

[Morwen Lagann]

No True Scotsman (or -woman) would put up with some outlander telling them what is and isn't Scottish.


(Joking. Seriously. Mostly.)