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[V. Gesakaarin]

Sounds about right. RP interactions are always going to be subjective, and how people execute their character concepts varies just as much as the preferences of the people receiving it.

[Jace]

Agreed. Which is why it seems to me that those with the most narrow range of interactions deemed worthwhile are the ones that fall out of RP the fastest, the hardest, or the most bitterly.

[V. Gesakaarin]

If all you have is tenuous public interactions, probably.

[Lyn Farel]

Well I never had that issue before and it seems these days that it has become a true problem in itself. It's like putting more and more people of a specific channel into your own block list : the end result makes less and less sense overall. It's just silly.

Anyway, have fun I guess. =)

This notion is put under the perpetual concept of "why isn't there a lot of public RP anymore?". There are many reasons, but what we are talking about is one of them. Eve RP is about solipsism. The OOC drama we all see is caused by solipsism. The absurd factional splitting is because of solipsism. People writing off anything that happens in Summit or IGS is solipsism. Half of #bittervet is caused by solipsism.

Edit: Also, this obviously isn't unique to Eve RP. It is a common theme for roleplaying anywhere. People care about their characters, their stories. Everyone else is essentially treated as NPCs in their narrative. But when you have this happen to a nearly pandemic extent, people begin retreating with friends (or retreat altogether) into their own channels/pms, away from the public view in order to avoid it all. So now they have their own space, their own conversation, their own arcs, that can't be touched by that annoying solipsism of everyone else. Because, obviously, it is ruining their RP.

Pattern?

Yes, pattern. Eve RP has changed, and not for the better.

There is no glory in basking into solipsism. It just makes you more schizophrenic. It's toxic.

A community that doesn't respect its own PF/lore/canon is doomed to that disease, no matter what. If everyone respects it, there is no reason for it to happen. Like in any roleplay game community, be it MMO or tabletop, as long as people keep being selfish and do whatever they want without any consideration for the community itself, it generates issues.

It's also a more general hint to a societal fact IRL caused by overdone liberalism/libertarianism where people come more and more not to give two shits about rules and decency. "I pay so I do whatever I like", "I don't give two shits about other players, I just care for my own self", and the likes, are a direct mirror to that syndrome. Very gallente in itself, incidentally.

That's anarchy instead of synergy in a nutshell.

[V. Gesakaarin]

Yes, pattern. Eve RP has changed, and not for the better.

There is no glory in basking into solipsism. It just makes you more schizophrenic. It's toxic.

A community that doesn't respect its own PF/lore/canon is doomed to that disease, no matter what. If everyone respects it, there is no reason for it to happen. Like in any roleplay game community, be it MMO or tabletop, as long as people keep being selfish and do whatever they want without any consideration for the community itself, it generates issues.

It's also a more general hint to a societal fact IRL caused by overdone liberalism/libertarianism where people come more and more not to give two shits about rules and decency. "I pay so I do whatever I like", "I don't give two shits about other players, I just care for my own self", and the likes, are a direct mirror to that syndrome. Very gallente in itself, incidentally.

That's anarchy instead of synergy in a nutshell.

I don't think you can build RP without a degree of consensus and rapport between its participants. In the past, the RP community was rather small and niche and while there were contentious discussions, it was small enough to at least provide a framework for some sort of honest discussion because in many ways everyone knew, or knew of each other by a few degrees of separation.

What's changed I think is that those people actually interested in participating in an RP framework based on consensus and rapport have withdrawn into their own small groups purely out of the self-interest of being in an environment where they can enjoy character interactions in an environment with people they get along with. This has created the effect that public RP tends to be just the never-ending dramas of people wanting everything their own way, have the attention upon them, that it just becomes like a stage play where everyone is just delivering their own lines at the same time and all you get is white noise, not content or meaning.

So yes, perhaps no one really gives a shit anymore: either because they care only for their own characters and narratives; or because they don't care for the people that behave that way.

And that to me is the present status quo, that I doubt will change.

[Jace]

Yes, pattern. Eve RP has changed, and not for the better.

There is no glory in basking into solipsism. It just makes you more schizophrenic. It's toxic.

A community that doesn't respect its own PF/lore/canon is doomed to that disease, no matter what. If everyone respects it, there is no reason for it to happen. Like in any roleplay game community, be it MMO or tabletop, as long as people keep being selfish and do whatever they want without any consideration for the community itself, it generates issues.

It's also a more general hint to a societal fact IRL caused by overdone liberalism/libertarianism where people come more and more not to give two shits about rules and decency. "I pay so I do whatever I like", "I don't give two shits about other players, I just care for my own self", and the likes, are a direct mirror to that syndrome. Very gallente in itself, incidentally.

That's anarchy instead of synergy in a nutshell.

I think you are missing part of my point, here. This bitterness about how others act in public that you and Veik are both mentioning, though from different perspectives, is part of what I am referring to as the solipsistic problem. The community no longer consists of people that roleplay exactly the way you want, with characters you want them to - thus everyone is either derpy or rude?

Bitterness and self-righteous cynicism is no less solipsistic than those who are being "rude" or committing nothing but "tenuous public interactions". There is a glass house here and you two folks are whipping rocks all over the damned place.

[Lyn Farel]

I don't understand. 

[Nicoletta Mithra]

A community that doesn't respect its own PF/lore/canon is doomed to that disease, no matter what. If everyone respects it, there is no reason for it to happen. Like in any roleplay game community, be it MMO or tabletop, as long as people keep being selfish and do whatever they want without any consideration for the community itself, it generates issues.

How can a community respect PF/lore/canon, if it's conflicting with itself at every edge and end? There is, for example, PF giving poets and poetics in Amarr society a really big value in cultural activities, with poets being able to acquire near-saint status. Now, in the EVE  sourcebook, it is stated that almost all arts that aren't visual are highly discuraged by the Amarrian establishment and that rephrasing the message of Scripture (like in religious poetry of the kind that had previously been held so high) would be considered almost scriledge in Amarr. What now is true, what is the PF one should roll with? Is the spaceship captain who began as court poet suddenly an ex-amost-heretic, when he would earlier by PF have been on a path that glorified God like no other?

To me this example sounds like someone getting the 'good idea' of taking the taboo on imagery the Islam has and turning it 'around' for the Amarr: A taboo on written word deviating from Scripture. That this doesn't make sense at all, given previous PF interested no one.

And there are several such instances and with every passing year they are generated manyfold, as the canon writers of CCP apparently have less and less an idea what already exists in terms of PF. No wonder with all the back and forth in that department, really.

Of course, that is also true in regard to slavery, the role of race and racism and many other central things within the Empire, which especially suffer from not being well defined, but being stuck in loads of PF paradoxes, because they are emotionally charged.

I've not followed the PF of other factions as much, but I think this isn't something merely found with the Amarr.

So, instead of fighting all the time a senseless war aboutwhich PF is to be taken seriously, most people in RP - especially those in there for some time - prefer to play in circles that share a consens on such things which are only more confused by referring back to PF.

[Jace]

A community that doesn't respect its own PF/lore/canon is doomed to that disease, no matter what. If everyone respects it, there is no reason for it to happen. Like in any roleplay game community, be it MMO or tabletop, as long as people keep being selfish and do whatever they want without any consideration for the community itself, it generates issues.

How can a community respect PF/lore/canon, if it's conflicting with itself at every edge and end? There is, for example, PF giving poets and poetics in Amarr society a really big value in cultural activities, with poets being able to acquire near-saint status. Now, in the EVE  sourcebook, it is stated that almost all arts that aren't visual are highly discuraged by the Amarrian establishment and that rephrasing the message of Scripture (like in religious poetry of the kind that had previously been held so high) would be considered almost scriledge in Amarr. What now is true, what is the PF one should roll with? Is the spaceship captain who began as court poet suddenly an ex-amost-heretic, when he would earlier by PF have been on a path that glorified God like no other?

To me this example sounds like someone getting the good idea of taking the taboo on imagery the Islam has and turning it 'around' for the Amarr: A taboo on written word deviating from Scripture. That this doesn't make sense at all, given previous PF interested no one.

And there are several such instances and with every passing year they are generated manyfold, as the canon writers of CCP apparently have less and less an idea what already exists in terms of PF. No wonder with all the back and forth in that department, really.

Of course, that is also true in regard to slavery, the role of race and racism and many other central things within the Empire, which especially suffer from not being well defined, but being stuck in loads of PF paradoxes, because they are emotionally charged.

I've not followed the PF of other factions as much, but I think this isn't something merely found with the Amarr.

So, instead of fighting all the time a senseless war aboutwhich PF is to be taken seriously, most people in RP - especially those in there for some time - prefer to play in circles that share a consens on such things which are only more confused by referring back to PF.

It was my impression that this was part of the point of Source - hence the title. Recognition of their past incongruity and releasing the definitive.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

I don't see where it is stating that it should be considered to overrule previous PF. Also, in the case of Poetry/visual arts, there was perviously no problem at all. They simply ignored what was previously established. Also, it's not even developed by the EVE (and Dust) team(s), but has been done by Dark Horse Comics.

So, if it is to be considered the definitive source, then they changed Amarr from a quite faceted, well rounded faction away in the direction that TonyG was tugging already - and with which they supposedly wanted to break: An fascist Empire merely based on Racism with some religious veneer.

And that is in contrast to the recent, in part quite good and with an overall high quality written, articles on the EVElopedia. And that's actually where the definitve words on PF should be found, imho. I pay monthly so I can expect not to have to buy another book to get the definite stance on what PF says. And else getting information that is diametrically opposed to what should be taken to be definite.

Source is a money making sceme, really, and that is fine with me, if they would do their job and look after making the PF consistent and coherent, not changing it nedlessly and sticked to the other usual quality standards.

[Shiki]

Agreed. Which is why it seems to me that those with the most narrow range of interactions deemed worthwhile are the ones that fall out of RP the fastest, the hardest, or the most bitterly.

Guilty as charged, with all my RP characters, though I'd like to think there's no bitterness on my part.

Part of my issue is with developing characters as persons, I think. As persons with hobbies, interests, and passions (varying levels of motivation to pursue information and experience), these characters would be living lives which in fundamental ways parallel our own mundane activities. We have limited scopes of available or desirable social interactions based on these factors and things like morals, political ideals and so forth. So to portray a believable person, there's a huge swath of potential interactions which I would avoid, which is how I try to portray these characters. If it happens that most of the time most public discourse is on topics within that swath... well, to take part is to break the integrity of the character.

The trick I guess is in learning to develop better characters, and maybe place less emphasis on persons. Somewhere between 'believable person' and 'Joe Q. Everyman' there is a character that can span the breadth of public interactions and still be believable. I'm just not good enough of a player to have found that yet.

[Ember Vykos]

A community that doesn't respect its own PF/lore/canon is doomed to that disease, no matter what. If everyone respects it, there is no reason for it to happen. Like in any roleplay game community, be it MMO or tabletop, as long as people keep being selfish and do whatever they want without any consideration for the community itself, it generates issues.

It's also a more general hint to a societal fact IRL caused by overdone liberalism/libertarianism where people come more and more not to give two shits about rules and decency. "I pay so I do whatever I like", "I don't give two shits about other players, I just care for my own self", and the likes, are a direct mirror to that syndrome. Very gallente in itself, incidentally.

I think you misunderstood me when I said I didn't give two shits. I do actually care about other players. What I don't care about is what people think of my character. By that I mean that if my character is believable then what's the problem? I take great pains to make my characters fit into the lore of EVE and yet still be somewhat unique in their own right. If you don't like that or think I'm being selfish for it then you might have more important issues besides what I do with my characters.

[Ember Vykos]

I have created a flow chart to help in the decision process.

  all my 

[Publius Valerius]

I don't see where it is stating that it should be considered to overrule previous PF. Also, in the case of Poetry/visual arts, there was perviously no problem at all. They simply ignored what was previously established. Also, it's not even developed by the EVE (and Dust) team(s), but has been done by Dark Horse Comics.

So, if it is to be considered the definitive source, then they changed Amarr from a quite faceted, well rounded faction away in the direction that TonyG was tugging already - and with which they supposedly wanted to break: An fascist Empire merely based on Racism with some religious veneer.

And that is in contrast to the recent, in part quite good and with an overall high quality written, articles on the EVElopedia. And that's actually where the definitve words on PF should be found, imho. I pay monthly so I can expect not to have to buy another book to get the definite stance on what PF says. And else getting information that is diametrically opposed to what should be taken to be definite.

Source is a money making sceme, really, and that is fine with me, if they would do their job and look after making the PF consistent and coherent, not changing it nedlessly and sticked to the other usual quality standards.

First of all: Sorry... Is early, and Im mobil. So this will have alot of misspellings and errors. I will later put my thoughts better out.


Totally agree Mithra. In all points. Sadly I got stuck on the chart before and had not read any further.... but really It was like you said. I would even add more. EDUCATION. One of the prime things for Amarrians. See here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Races_and_bloodlines#Amarr

The Amarrians rule a vast Empire, the largest and oldest of the four empires. Ruled by a mighty Empress, this vast theocratic society is supported by a broad foundation of Minmatar slave labor. Amarrian citizens tend to be highly educated and fervent individuals, and as a culture adheres to the basic tenet that what others call slavery is in fact one step on a spiritual path towards fully embracing their faith. As a result, the Empire remains the most stable and militarily powerful nation-state in New Eden, despite several setbacks in recent history.

I think, the guys of Dark Horse just looked brush over the wiki and copy past some stuff (see early pages). As for "new" content, I think they took a big step in the direction of "the name which shalt not be be said." They mention a deep split in education, which isnt mention before. Which is a little bit off. Let me explain why.

It would also make not much sense in the way that education is a tool for assimilation of larger groups (free and enslave. Not just slaves, also commeners, and holders, etc... every imperial). Or some would argue is a tool for "gleichmacherei". And I mean "gleichmacherei" in a best sence: homogenisation of culture, which can be best describe as an "egalitariansation of thinking". What I mean with that?  Seriphyn Inhonores made ones a nice chart and thread about New Edens culture, in this chart and thread he came to the conclusion that the Empire is the most "one diminsional in culture wise", the most HOMOGENOUS and the Fed the most pluralistic ones. And I have to agree: (See here). Which means there is a force which not just binds this unity reactivity (Religion).... No, not just that, not just reactive.*** There is also a force which reacts active. Which is education. Which ALSO not just enforces unity towards slaves (the un-assimilated group), it enforces unity towards EVERYONE (even pod pilots).

Also here I will say... that I thought it was one of the points of signs of faith, next to the Khanid symbol and meaning; that the kids in the SCHOOL are minmatar/ammatar. Which shows this education towards a understand of the "amarrian way". Therefore giving the empire a tool to "standardise" Ideas and Ideals (otherwise we would see a larger fragmentation/fractionization of CULTURE and/or RELIGION). By taking it away, they take away a Idea which I had in mind how amarrian society can achieve such a unity. Still Im happy to roll with everything they (CCP) come up with (I still have to go more in the mood that EVE is a space opera. ).



Edit:*** About: Reactive and active. Reactive in like.... that religion (Theology Council,  moral police and hunter of heretics, etc...) enforces unity after a subculture (minor cult, heretic cult, etc..) is form. Active means that unity is enforce even BEFORE such an subculture/derailment takes place. For me was education this force which tackles the root of dis-unity, which takes place before the forming. As for reactive, it takes place after dis-unity already happened. But as I said, Im happy to roll with anything.

[Samira Kernher]

I don't see where it is stating that it should be considered to overrule previous PF. Also, in the case of Poetry/visual arts, there was perviously no problem at all. They simply ignored what was previously established. Also, it's not even developed by the EVE (and Dust) team(s), but has been done by Dark Horse Comics.

Dark Horse is the publisher, Source was worked on by the EVE and DUST teams. It's what Falcon, Eterne and co have been working on for the last year.

Also, it does overrule previous PF where there are contradictions. This has been said a few times by Falcon.

EVE: Source is intended to be the basic "bible" for prime fiction going forward.

There's a lot of new stuff in there, a few minor changes and some clarification. However in most cases things are left a little open ended so that our writers can expand further if they want to. As far as I'm aware EVE: Source is considered the be all and end all in terms of being canon, moving forward.

Falcon also told me in PMs while I was asking him about contradictions between previous EVElopedia articles and Source (namely in Demographics) that Source takes precedence. He said one of the purposes of Source is to clean up the inconsistencies by being the canon bible from here on forward.

So, if it is to be considered the definitive source, then they changed Amarr from a quite faceted, well rounded faction away in the direction that TonyG was tugging already - and with which they supposedly wanted to break: An fascist Empire merely based on Racism with some religious veneer.

With the exception of the demographics (especially in regards to freed slaves) I'm quite happy with what they've written for Amarr. For the most part it just repeats and summarizes what's said on EVElopedia aside from a few changes and additions.


I also see nothing in Source that precludes the existence of poets and writers, or that they can't attain impact. Just that visual art is considered more important. You already see the disinclination towards rephrasing in the pre-existing canon that describes it--there was massive outcry against Excena Foer because she rewrote and rephrased Itzak Barah's work in Gallentean, and Itzak had to go out of his way to argue that Excena's derivative was valuable on its own merit despite the changes she made for its introduction to Federal audiences.