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[Lyn Farel]

I don't think you can describe the Amarr as "racist".

Well yeah, I think we tend to confuse racist (implying hating other races) with racial supremacists. At least for the most conservative and orthodox of them. The new emergent beliefs that all races have to be redeemed equally is less prone to that.

[Louella Dougans]

I don't think you can describe the Amarr as "racist".

Well yeah, I think we tend to confuse racist (implying hating other races) with racial supremacists. At least for the most conservative and orthodox of them. The new emergent beliefs that all races have to be redeemed equally is less prone to that.

Well, the way I was thinking was:

A True Amarr conservative person would look down on say, Gallente, not because they come from Gallente Prime, but because they're the descendents of unredeemed sinners.

the dislike of the other races is not because of genetic reasons, but because of spiritual reasons.

If that makes sense ?

[Gaven Lok ri]

I don't think you can describe the Amarr as "racist".

Well yeah, I think we tend to confuse racist (implying hating other races) with racial supremacists. At least for the most conservative and orthodox of them. The new emergent beliefs that all races have to be redeemed equally is less prone to that.

Well, the way I was thinking was:

A True Amarr conservative person would look down on say, Gallente, not because they come from Gallente Prime, but because they're the descendents of unredeemed sinners.

the dislike of the other races is not because of genetic reasons, but because of spiritual reasons.

If that makes sense ?

This is how I see it.

[Gaven Lok ri]

Something to note is that you do have quite a few progressive Amarrians out there. What are missing is actually the good conservatives. Conservative in Amarr RP tends to be stupid tropes about abusing slaves. I want to see people actively fighting to preserve Holder authority against the centralizing tendencies of the last centuries. The funny thing about the Tetrimon is that most of their supporters have been crazy liberal (probably because PIE gets perceived as conservative and they react against us) but they themselves were extreme anti-centralization and anti-manumission conservatives.

OOC I actually think PIE is probably dangerously progressive politically from an average conservative holders point of view. Gaven has an active agenda of centralizing the Amarr Empire, he wants to see highly urbanized populations that are controlled by a central bureaucracy that is beholden to the Empress. This can only happen at the expense of the aristocratic elements.

[Samira Kernher]

Those spiritual reasons bleed into genetics, though. The Amarr are an educated society, who use science as proof of God. Science is included in the Scriptures. And they are already established as being heavily concerned with ancestry and heritage. The science would be a way of documenting those who are descendants of the unredeemed sinners. Genetic analysis is part of genealogy, afterall. You can't really divorce the two. The religion is from where the racist ideologies come from, but the genetics is the science used to track that progression.

The fact is that the other races are seen as inferior to the True Amarr. That this is based in spiritual reasons rather than physical ones doesn't make it 'not racism' to me, because the reasons don't change the fact that the other races are inferior. They are just inferior because of original sin and not because of physical differences. Maybe I'm using the terminology wrong, but for me inequality between the races, regardless of whether it is over physical, spiritual, or cultural reasons is all still racism in my book. I suppose you could go with the term 'ethnocentrism' instead, though even that isn't a perfect description as it judges based only on culture, while it's clear that at least conservative Amarr still look down even on those who are perfect examples of Amarr culture yet are not pure True Amarr by heritage (see Udorians).

Really, it'd be something like religio-ethno-racio-centrism (I could see it being called amarriocentrism in-universe). It's a mix of religious superiority, cultural superiority, and racial superiority. The racial superiority originates with the fall from God and Amarr rather than physical differences, but returning to God and Amarr does not grant full equality with the True Amarr.

[Gaven Lok ri]

Those spiritual reasons bleed into genetics, though. The Amarr are an educated society, who use science as proof of God. Science is included in the Scriptures. And they are already established as being heavily concerned with ancestry and heritage. The science would be a way of documenting those who are descendants of the unredeemed sinners. Genetic analysis is part of genealogy, afterall. You can't really divorce the two. The religion is from where the racist ideologies come from, but the genetics is the science used to track that progression.

The fact is that the other races are seen as inferior to the True Amarr. That this is based in spiritual reasons rather than physical ones doesn't make it 'not racism' to me, because the reasons don't change the fact that the other races are inferior. They are just inferior because of original sin and not because of physical differences. Maybe I'm using the terminology wrong, but for me inequality between the races, regardless of whether it is over physical, spiritual, or cultural reasons is all still racism in my book. I suppose you could go with the term 'ethnocentrism' instead, though even that isn't a perfect description as it judges based only on culture, while it's clear that at least conservative Amarr still look down even on those who are perfect examples of Amarr culture yet are not pure True Amarr by heritage (see Udorians).

Really, it'd be something like religio-ethno-racio-centrism (I could see it being called amarriocentrism in-universe). It's a mix of religious superiority, cultural superiority, and racial superiority. The racial superiority originates with the fall from God and Amarr rather than physical differences, but returning to God and Amarr does not grant full equality with the True Amarr.

Right. Just because its religiously justified rather than scientificly justified racism doesn't make it *not* racism. Especially since science is subordinated to religion in Amarr.

[Vic Van Meter]

- Yonis Ardishapur should be emperor. Case and point  No long talking.

SHHHH!

I apologize for my friend's outburst here.  I can assure you that we Ardishapurites support the Empress completely and, of course, have no designations on state power.  Amarr victor.

>.>

[Lyn Farel]

Well, you can be a racial supremacist without hating or disliking other races. You just think yours is superior. Is that still racism ? Maybe, I don't know... According to wikipedia, it definitely is though.

In any case I wouldn't mind to have more PF info on the various stances on the Amarr celestial order and slavery according to conservatives, orthodox and progressives.

Something to note is that you do have quite a few progressive Amarrians out there. What are missing is actually the good conservatives. Conservative in Amarr RP tends to be stupid tropes about abusing slaves. I want to see people actively fighting to preserve Holder authority against the centralizing tendencies of the last centuries. The funny thing about the Tetrimon is that most of their supporters have been crazy liberal (probably because PIE gets perceived as conservative and they react against us) but they themselves were extreme anti-centralization and anti-manumission conservatives.

OOC I actually think PIE is probably dangerously progressive politically from an average conservative holders point of view. Gaven has an active agenda of centralizing the Amarr Empire, he wants to see highly urbanized populations that are controlled by a central bureaucracy that is beholden to the Empress. This can only happen at the expense of the aristocratic elements.

It is true that we haven't seen much true conservatives that are not just mustache twirling holders. I miss Mensha Kael Crow for that tbh.

The problem with progressives is that usually they just tend to be quiet. Even when KotMC was at its golden age and was the first and foremost influential Amarr corp in the Amarr RP bloc, it tended not to be extremely vocal about its views, and merely vaguely defended itself against more orthodox/conservative attacks. Usually most Amarr RPers have been very scared to state other beliefs out of fear of heresy/whatever, or just to be associated with all the actual true amarr heretics exiled in foreign land and claiming to be slavery abolitionists, and some such.

Well, it is true of course that the Amarr tend to do a lot of that behind closed doors, but I also miss the days of Ashar KorAzor and OPIM. Those were really politically active and provided a good alternative to the usual.

[Publius Valerius]

... provided a good alternative to the usual.

Dont start, or I will never come back. Im already alittle bitter. I think, we could make a general thread about missopportunities. And it would go through all the factions, I even think the greatest miss was something what is not really to hear today: The Intaki Liberation Front (or I havent heared something in my sort comeback. Im happy to be proven wrong.). I think they even ones try to work (on a arc) with CCP, if I remember right? Would be so great if players could work on some larger arcs. As well tip in some more sci-fi trophys (I actually had here nothing to say, would be a noob. But nevertheless would be great): Human-androids, minior factions (Syndicate, Mandate, Kingdom etc... or at least: CCP add them in the character creator as a backround.), cyberpunk, computer- and network-hacker (Khanid Cyberknights?), consumerism... or just greater philosophy themes.

- Yonis Ardishapur should be emperor. Case and point  No long talking.

SHHHH!

I apologize for my friend's outburst here.  I can assure you that we Ardishapurites support the Empress completely and, of course, have no designations on state power.  Amarr victor.

>.>

>.>Moves back into the shadows.

[Samira Kernher]

In any case I wouldn't mind to have more PF info on the various stances on the Amarr celestial order and slavery according to conservatives, orthodox and progressives.

Hopefully EVE: Source gives us more on the political stances. The State of the Empire article is a very useful page for that, but way too short and a bit outdated.

[Isis Dea]

Just thought I'd pop in and vote. I occasionally still visit. I've unsubbed from EVE completely. From failure to implement WiS to taking a royal sh*t on the lore and RPers in general, I finally gave in after 9 years and stopped my subscription.

Clearly EVE is about internet spaceships and player alliances. That's the new lore. Better get on that bandwagon now or find better.

[Graelyn]

Ditto the Above.

[Techie Kanenald]

Just thought I'd pop in and vote. I occasionally still visit. I've unsubbed from EVE completely. From failure to implement WiS to taking a royal sh*t on the lore and RPers in general, I finally gave in after 9 years and stopped my subscription.

Clearly EVE is about internet spaceships and player alliances. That's the new lore. Better get on that bandwagon now or find better.

Where's better?

[Jace]

Some players I know are just biding their time for Elder Scrolls Online, those that don't mind fantasy settings that is.

[Techie Kanenald]

:sad face: for Sci-Fi geeks.