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[Silas Vitalia]

So.

The PF has for the most part maintained that the Empires (the 4 major Empires at least), maintain navies far in excess and in power to anything assembled by any of the capsuleers alliances in the outer regions.  In numbers, ship types, force projection, you name it. 

This has of course been a tricky line to walk because for many of the 'live events' the number of NPC ships on grid has been laughable. (big events with ONE titan, or big events with a handful of dreadnaughts, etc)  I personally chalk this up to CCP not being interested in having 100 devs multibox huge capital fleets combined with their continued lack of interest in providing more dev flexible 'npc' live events (similar to sansha live event spawns but with more impressive ships).

ANYWAY.  The expansions and seeming retconning the last few patches seem to recently be going in a direction of 'capsuleer supremacy.'   Suddenly the Empires are scared of the capsuleers, as seen in the frowny-faced CONCORD man in the "eve: origins" trailer.   CCP seems to have a huge boner for 'empowering' us the players.  Suddenly the null sec stuff is important (exclamation point!) to the PF, and the big capsuleer fights are suddenly the biggest and most important pew pew the cluster has ever seen.

This for me wraps up a whole ball of retconning and inconsistancies with CONCORD, Capsuleers, The Empires, etc.

Is CONCORD in charge of our capsules? Do they still cut the puppet strings? I don't see how any of this works PF-wise, if they are retconning the null groups into being the biggest and scariest things ever, CONCORD and the Empires would cut those strings right away, yes?

I feel like the old PF was of the flavor that yes big important battles happen in null sec but these are small potatoes to what happens in the Empire.

New PF retcon versions are saying null battles are the biggest and most baddest space pew pew ever seen by human eyes and the Empires are shaking in their boots at the mighty capsuleers, but they don't seem interested in deading all the clones and killing the capsuleers?)

I R Confused.


Thoughts?

[Nicoletta Mithra]

CCP is consistently inconsistent.

[Shiki]

It seemed like an aspect of Seagull's vision: more player systems, more player control. If the capsuleers begin expanding k-space and ascending to primacy in the cluster, I wonder if the Discontented Man has already considered pulling the plug but has run into a roadblock as yet unrevealed.

Empire resistance? SoE interference? Jovian backdoor? Capsuleer-designed forcible software lockout?

Slow day at work, so ~baseless conjecture~.

[Vic Van Meter]

You would think the easiest way to go about it would be to keep the economies of scale, that even the big capsuleer nullsec fights, while huge and violent, are nothing compared to the kind of resources and manpower an empire can bring to bear.  It makes sense; the idea is that not many people live in nullsec but highsec is packed.

On the other hand, Empire fleets are built of titans that, for the most part, do absolutely nothing.  Like American aircraft carriers, they're incredible force projectors that the country very rarely has to use and, if they do, they only need one or two.

In the end, I think CCP has to blame the difficulty of their game.  Not that it's difficult, but that it isn't.  Despite the PVP and logistics being as complicated as PVP games tend to be, actually floating in nullsec isn't difficult.  It isn't like pirates are also constantly attacking capsuleer corps instead of being small cash cows, or that supplies are hard to come by once you put together one of those corps.  The game isn't challenging the corps and forcing them to put their ships on the line, daily, just to "pay the rent" in terms of PVE.

I think CCP could make things more fun by making it harder to exist out there in nullsec.  Force capsuleer corporations to either get supplies to operate from the empires, get them from linking up with a pirate faction, or make running an outpost station in nullsec so damn expensive that you WANT people to feel safe and secure trading there just so you can collect the tax money.  And make sure that, whoever you side with, that you can have packs of roaming NPCs looking to ruin your day.  Hell, to recognize the work that big alliances do, throw whole hordes of NPCs at them specifically, coordinating massive, custom attacks once every few months so that no one ever gets too comfortable.

Whatever happens, that ought to reduce fleet sizes a bit.  At least there will be a proper drain on resources to justify all the building and logistics that goes into a nullsec corp.

[Silas Vitalia]

I'm more concerned with 'power creep' that we have in the game and how this relates to the PF.

The empires of course seemed more powerful by comparison when people could barely build a battleship.

Now that every tom dick and harry has a Supercarrier and capitals due to game mechanics being what they are, this causes problems for the PF.

So either the Empire navies get adjusted upwards to keep things in relative check, or as what seems to be happening, poor game design (power creep), forces changes to the established PF.

[Lyn Farel]

That's maybe why they are trying to go toward that new emphasis on the growing power of capsuleers and nullsec, since that's what happens ingame already.

It's lame, and I am very scared of the implications of that upon the RP milieu. Most of us are deeply rooted into Empire lore, and if they start to widen the gap already existing between freelance capsuleers and the empires, RPers tears will follow.

[Silas Vitalia]

Also its large groups who aren't interested or respect the PF forcing changes in the PF.

[Saede Riordan]

I see the word 'retcon' getting thrown around quite a bit. But I don't see it as that. I see the relative power of the capsuleers increasing, and the Empires struggling to keep up. Its not that the Empires are suddenly retroactively less powerful, its that the capsuleers keep getting more powerful, and can pull in power and resources faster then the Empires can keep up with.

[Silas Vitalia]

I see the word 'retcon' getting thrown around quite a bit. But I don't see it as that. I see the relative power of the capsuleers increasing, and the Empires struggling to keep up. Its not that the Empires are suddenly retroactively less powerful, its that the capsuleers keep getting more powerful, and can pull in power and resources faster then the Empires can keep up with.

This is where the PF falls apart.  Either the capsuleers as a class are under the control of the powers that be or they aren't. 

If they are under their control (sovereignty bills, cloning, manufacturing, war decs, etc), then they would NEVER be allowed to become powerful.

If they are free, then lots of PF holes to fill.


It's hard to believe in supremacy of the capsuleers when CONCORD can shut off null starbase shields whenever they like.

[Saede Riordan]

I think that's an issue where CCP attributes balance related game design limitations to CONCORD, instead of say, physics of the universe. CONCORD is clearly no depicted as being all powerful. They got their shit kicked in by a few dozen elder dreadnaughts, people blow up fleets of them in null all the time, really, their grip on capsuleers seems to be pretty much nothing but an economic grip.

[Silas Vitalia]

I just might have some suspension of disbelief issues with the idea of legions of TEST and GOON pilots eventually bombarding Pator and posting hundreds of ASCII penises and trolling in local.

"lol minmatard noobs dai. "

[Shiori]

It is terribly, terribly important to realize that prime fiction consistency is very low on the list of CCP priorities, right down there with pleasing the arcane tastes of what I've come to think of as the Summit-Backstage Axis of roleplayers.

Once you have a coping strategy for that, you're golden.

[Alain Colcer]

in the grand scheme of things, not only you need to consider NPC empires....but also NPC pirate factions in this power struggle.....do angels get stomped in curse with all the nullbears living there?

Is ORE (under serp control) under threat?


I suspect that planetary populations look at capsuleer alliances as godsend, providing infrastructure and traffic in remote locations.....NPC factions (any of them) looking to exert influence over those areas however are not that happy.

[Arista Shahni]

not many people live in nullsec but highsec is packed.

 It isn't like pirates are also constantly attacking capsuleer corps instead of being small cash cows, or that supplies are hard to come by once you put together one of those corps.  The game isn't challenging the corps and forcing them to put their ships on the line, daily, just to "pay the rent" in terms of PVE.

I think CCP could make things more fun by making it harder to exist out there in nullsec.  Force capsuleer corporations to either get supplies to operate from the empires, get them from linking up with a pirate faction, or make running an outpost station in nullsec so damn expensive that you WANT people to feel safe and secure trading there just so you can collect the tax money.  And make sure that, whoever you side with, that you can have packs of roaming NPCs looking to ruin your day.  Hell, to recognize the work that big alliances do, throw whole hordes of NPCs at them specifically, coordinating massive, custom attacks once every few months so that no one ever gets too comfortable.

Whatever happens, that ought to reduce fleet sizes a bit.  At least there will be a proper drain on resources to justify all the building and logistics that goes into a nullsec corp.

Eh?

There's a reason a lot of people have pointed out "null is like a job".  It is.  It may be a fun job for many, so they'll say "it's easy" -- but its not.  It's work.  and the work of hundred and thousands of players working together, as opposed to NPC's and game mechanics 'doing things'.

The supply chains are run by players.  Eyes and ears on gates, players.  System security, players.  Even in the heart of a "stronghold" there can be issues, and players need to be willing to do those things.  It runs like a tiny communistic society with a splash of capitalism for those going above and beyond their null jobs. 

If it's become rote for those living out there its because they've had years and years of experience doing it that no one notices the "npc rent" for their space anymore - its already allocated in the budgets of what people do out there.  You get to know as many people as you can in positions of logistics, etc, to get what you need done, the wheels are greased with ISK, yes even to your own alliance members (especially so in peacetime), etc. 

I mean, imagine someone who's only 'game time' in EVE is moving a specific group of people's sit around.  That's their whole day.  That's all they do. 

Imagine another person who their whole day is log in and send intel reports for a single gate in a single system.  Thats all they do.

That's why people point out that "null is a job". You could be one of those people flying around by the seat of your pants doing wtf you feel like and just drawing on the alliance resources, or yo could be an alliance resource, that doesn't exist as some NPC thing or through the milieu or a "normal" trade hub in space like Jita which is fed by the whole of the playerbase.


Null has been at war for months, I managed to join a null corp like 2 weeks before our corps CTA.  I've made no ISK since then and it didn't require some Incursionlike NPC mechanics to cause billions of ISK in just day to day damage - not just the big battles, to tick away over the months for everyone on all sides.  The players actually do kick each other's asses well enough to not require another NPC cow in the field to milk.  Only ops get "reinbursed" and reimbursements are only hulls and only if you were fit the right way - which in null means you likely bought the fits from null manufacturers.  The whole thing is nearly self encapsulating.


Anyway I'd hope the goons could at least find a good enough writer for the PF part.  Though penis cults were popular in Rome I don't think they go over well in New Eden.

[Arista Shahni]

And lemme just add.. when I talk to this grizzed bittervet next to me.. once upon a time, when EVE was a simpler world, everyone was a roleplayer in the sense of - they did stuff, and stories were written out of it.  It was how the world took its first few breaths. 

What happens in game happens in game.  Think about it without an IC/OOC divide and you end up with a pretty interesting looking world.  That's what I do.

He has me add: "Oh, you mean when you look at a null alliance it works like.. an Empire? really?"  Sarcasm flavor: british. 

Null's been there since day 1 and it started as a bunch of ragtag outlaws.  It's grew from that.  So, if CONCORD's old time enemies come back to bit them in the ass what's PF breaking about that anyway?  I seriously doubt they will change the game mechanics and allow Titans in Empire.