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[Jace]

At the end of the day, it really comes down to people agreeing with each other out of character.

This is precisely why these types of situations are best handled in small groups with players you know. Managing anything OOCly with players you don't have experience with is a nightmare bordering on the impossible.

[Esna Pitoojee]

What's stopping A from writing a message to his backup in case of death? Something along the lines of 'Hello me. If you are watching this message you must know that the meeting had gone south' with a will that A start investigating?

Then we could start a whole plot about finding out what actually happen, and getting satisfactory compensation from those responsible.

Esna didn't do this the first time; now he does. Actually, the last time he went into a situation where he considered death to be a serious risk and he'd really want to know what happened, he lugged along a fairly significant (small suitcase) electronics suite to make sure he would.

This seriously happens on a regular basis ? 

It's happened once in my ~6 years RPing. I don't think that's a terribly regular basis. After that, Esna got a lot more paranoid about security.

EDIT:

At the end of the day, it really comes down to people agreeing with each other out of character.

This is precisely why these types of situations are best handled in small groups with players you know. Managing anything OOCly with players you don't have experience with is a nightmare bordering on the impossible.

Yeeeeeeup. This is something I've run into before as well. You need to have some OOC cooperation. Going back to the example I gave, I had agreed with the player beforehand that Esna would be able to detective out an idea of what had happened; there was no argument over what he could and couldn't have found, because we were cooperating from pretty early on.

[Lyn Farel]

I disagree, I think the reason that the stored memory can't be activated before the original dies has nothing to do with technical capabilities and everything to do with concord saying 'there can only be one of you running around, don't do that'.

Well you can disagree, but you can't say for sure, like I can't as well. That's what puts me off in the first place : we simply don't know much about cloning.

=> However considering the case of Zainou's CEO, it is perfectly possible to imagine that such data storage / transfer of a brain pattern is possible as long as there is no discontinuity involved. Which means in your case, that the memory of someone would be copied into that implant at some point and would continue to live into that implant before being retrieved and transferred into a new body. Which starts to be rather grim.

Possible. This is the 'Eclipse Phase' perspective, which is that the implant can outright emulate the brain and have the mind continue running on the implant. I disagree and take the 'Pandora's Star' perspective, that the implant is just memory storage. Audio/video and maybe, maybe some other senses. The reason I take that perspective, is because I assume that the Zainou tech being used to emulate Todo's brain and allowing him to exist as a person on a computer is likely fabulously complicated and probably takes some extremely high end supercomputing technology. Not something you could stuff into an implant.

Pandora Star clearly states that it's the same individual in a new body, so it's definitely more than just declarative memory. The situation becomes interesting when new-teen Dudley finds old-lobotomized Dudley that is not dead and how their different experiences have shaped them both differently while still sharing the exact same original mind.

Anyway, we have no clue if such storage is possible in Eve.

=> Also, considering that PF also states that not only mere transfer of memory is possible but also copy/pasting allowing several clones of the same individual to roam around at the same time, it is perfectly possible to assume that someone is cloned after his/her death and will try to find his/her old self still living into that implant. Weird disturbing stuff, and highly illegal. But I rather like the implication of that. Though is Zainou's transfer tech available to every capsuleer ? Not sure.

Interesting stuff indeed. It opens some really interesting possibilities. What if the implant is recovered by unsavoury types, the person's mind is downloaded into a new body, and they're repetitively tortured? Nasty stuff possible. As for Zainou's tech, I figure its just that a really really advanced computer is required to take a brain scan produced via soft/hard clone, and emulate it out in a computer, essentially simulating the entire brain with sufficient fidelity to actively function as it would a physical brain. I don't think that tech is particularly common, and my character certainly doesn't have access to it.

For the torture part, Takeshi Kovacs trilogy has a very grim and interesting take on virtual torture, and uses similar implant tech like in Pandora Star, except that it's not just storage, but it can be waken up without a new body with a correct interface and people can start to torture the mind inside as they see fit, with compression of time where it can take centuries inside for a few seconds outside. However, no clue how it works in Eve again :/

For Zainou I think iirc that the chronicles speak about a real transfer where Zainou actually lives in a machine, rather than a simple artificial construct looking like him (similar difference made in Greg Mandel from Hamilton). But I may be wrong.

If you only implied that brain data is saved, in the sense images, sounds, or whatever pertains to declarative memory (vs procedural memory), I am not sure where PF stands on the matter, and if actual tampering with memory is possible to that point, as it is a lot more complicated than just copy pasting a pattern (as you will have to actually understand how everything work). Which leads back to my other thread on memory tampering.

I think of the backup as a recording, it takes sensory data, and stores it. It turns the character's eyes and ears into video and audio recorders and stores the data on an internal chip. It might not even be possible to directly reimplant the memories. If the chip was recovered, the character might have to just watch the recording from the implant. No different then if you had a micro-video camera implanted inside your eye really.

And no, it doesn't exist in the PF, we effectively invented it through a bunch of roleplay between myself, Scherezad, and a few others. The idea was to create something that would possibly become widely used and create interesting potential RP. The point was never to godmode, it was to add some diversity to the RP scene with player created stuff.

A backup like a hidden camera in the eye or wherever, recording stuff happening in live is perfectly fine and mundane. I referred to a full declarative memory storage where the tech actually needs to dive into the brain synpases, understand them, and take out all the data and translate it into digital data, which is... not mundane.

And yes, I understand. I am always torn when it comes to such matters. I am myself trying to set up something revolving around direct synaptic communication between two individuals, being able to communicate everything, which means being able to "hear" the other one the same way you hear yourself thinking. I have been thinking about it for years now trying to see how it fits or not into PF and what I can accommodate or what I just have to thrash. This basing myself on skillbooks, VR and capsule interfacing. Still not sure if it fits or not, so I'm not stepping further with it atm.

I may be some kind of PF ayatollah.

[Desiderya]

Isn't the PF rather clear on the subject? Instantaneous cloning is only possible with the hardware of the capsule and the implants, or - with limited reach - the DUST technology. Soft cloning is possible, with the broker being the anomaly of essentially being unlimited (cought some jovian space herpes as payback, though), as evidenced by everyone 'cept Heth having access to it, without much drama about whether or not this memory loss will impact them.
Clone jumping, essentially instantaneous, is possible within certain boundaries (Capsule linked, timeout as "trauma").
So there you go. We've got massive capabilities with technology to provide everything one can possibly need in the case of memory loss, so that backtracking to see where something might have happened is fairly simple. You can have cameras in your eye implants, uploading everything seamlessly to a protected cloud. If you go meet questionable elements you can make a note of it - if that's the last piece of information, then something must have happened there. Third party surveillance data? You met at a certain station, maybe security cameras have picked something up, try to find out where you've last been seen alive.
This opens up for so many possibilities and angles of roleplay to rely on and/or tamper with this data, that one can craft and endless amount of logical and engaging situations.

Important bits are, however, having OOC contact with your enemy, so agree on at least some things prior, just as with any physical conflict situation, else we just have poweremoting and pulling things out of crevices galore.

[Saede Riordan]

And yes, I understand. I am always torn when it comes to such matters. I am myself trying to set up something revolving around direct synaptic communication between two individuals, being able to communicate everything, which means being able to "hear" the other one the same way you hear yourself thinking. I have been thinking about it for years now trying to see how it fits or not into PF and what I can accommodate or what I just have to thrash. This basing myself on skillbooks, VR and capsule interfacing. Still not sure if it fits or not, so I'm not stepping further with it atm.

Alexylva Paradox actually has technology like this, and we roleplay that its possible albeit not common. All of the "coordinators" our board of directors, are networked together in this manner, and there are several civilian co-ops that we RP as existing in this fashion as well. TS-F also has something like this, (though they have Sansha Handwavium technology) it doesn't seem like something that would be too out there considering the EVE universe. Where Saede ICly got the technology we say is 'galnet resources on Gallente techno-communes'.

I don't mind stretching the bounds of the PF, as long as you're not doing something that directly contradicts the existing PF.

Pandora Star clearly states that it's the same individual in a new body, so it's definitely more than just declarative memory. The situation becomes interesting when new-teen Dudley finds old-lobotomized Dudley that is not dead and how their different experiences have shaped them both differently while still sharing the exact same original mind.

Anyway, we have no clue if such storage is possible in Eve.

I like to think it is, if for no other reason then that it opens up some interesting RP opportunities, and makes the setting more 'sci-fi transhuman' feeling.

[Jace]

And yes, I understand. I am always torn when it comes to such matters. I am myself trying to set up something revolving around direct synaptic communication between two individuals, being able to communicate everything, which means being able to "hear" the other one the same way you hear yourself thinking. I have been thinking about it for years now trying to see how it fits or not into PF and what I can accommodate or what I just have to thrash. This basing myself on skillbooks, VR and capsule interfacing. Still not sure if it fits or not, so I'm not stepping further with it atm.

Alexylva Paradox actually has technology like this, and we roleplay that its possible albeit not common. All of the "coordinators" our board of directors, are networked together in this manner, and there are several civilian co-ops that we RP as existing in this fashion as well. TS-F also has something like this, (though they have Sansha Handwavium technology) it doesn't seem like something that would be too out there considering the EVE universe. Where Saede ICly got the technology we say is 'galnet resources on Gallente techno-communes'.

I don't mind stretching the bounds of the PF, as long as you're not doing something that directly contradicts the existing PF.

Pandora Star clearly states that it's the same individual in a new body, so it's definitely more than just declarative memory. The situation becomes interesting when new-teen Dudley finds old-lobotomized Dudley that is not dead and how their different experiences have shaped them both differently while still sharing the exact same original mind.

Anyway, we have no clue if such storage is possible in Eve.

I like to think it is, if for no other reason then that it opens up some interesting RP opportunities, and makes the setting more 'sci-fi transhuman' feeling.

As can be seen in this thread, the difficulty with that approach is getting other players to accept your technological inventions. This is not easy.

[Synthia]

This is precisely why these types of situations are best handled in small groups with players you know. Managing anything OOCly with players you don't have experience with is a nightmare bordering on the impossible.

Exactly.

As can be seen in this thread, the difficulty with that approach is getting other players to accept your technological inventions. This is not easy.

Quite. godmode escalators.

Putting the thread back on track, ignoring whatever technological doodads people have inserted from other settings, then we're no further forward than in the OP.

Nobody has suggested anything that is workable in any way, other than doing what I said right at the start:

So, what solutions are there that are not simply avoiding all RP situations where clone backups would be required? I.e. avoid ever going to someone's party, on the off chance that someone is launching an assassination attempt ?

which means, snubbing invitations by people you don't know. Which means newer players find it hard to establish themselves, and are excluded.

Any better ideas ?

[Jace]

Personally, I've found the simplistic PF approach the most useful - similar to what Des and Esna said. Limit yourself to what is generally accepted: soft clones, memory loss, go watch security cameras or talk to witnesses. If someone tries to balk at any of that, point them to the PF, flavor text, or tell them to go suck a toad.

That being said, if you go to an event and someone tries to godmode your character - guess what, it didn't happen. I literally just ignore someone else's godmoding until they get the point. If you want to allow something to happen at an event on the level of assassination, coordinate it OOCly. Anything else is just a clusterfrack.

Edit: I don't feel like I emphasized this enough. The problem in your example is the person attempting the assassination without OOC organization. The community needs to self-correct with that player, not other RPers avoid events.

[Saede Riordan]

Personally, I've found the simplistic PF approach the most useful - similar to what Des and Esna said. Limit yourself to what is generally accepted: soft clones, memory loss, go watch security cameras or talk to witnesses. If someone tries to balk at any of that, point them to the PF, flavor text, or tell them to go suck a toad.

That being said, if you go to an event and someone tries to godmode your character - guess what, it didn't happen. I literally just ignore someone else's godmoding until they get the point. If you want to allow something to happen at an event on the level of assassination, coordinate it OOCly. Anything else is just a clusterfrack.

Edit: I don't feel like I emphasized this enough. The problem in your example is the person attempting the assassination without OOC organization. The community needs to self-correct with that player, not other RPers avoid events.

This essentially. It comes down to consent. Unlike the rest of EVE, RP is a consensual activity. Nothing can happen to your character that you don't allow to happen. So if someone tries something that you don't want to happen OOCly, or don't have arranged OOCly, then you're not under any obligation to acknowledge their RP at all, moreover, if you're at an event and something like that happens, you can request the event manager kick the person from the channel. If they refuse, I'd just leave the channel and tell them you don't want to participate if that sort of thing is going to happen.

If stuff like this is happening without OOC communication its a problem on the part of the player doing it, and we as a community should be able to collectively go 'nope' when someone pulls out their laser chaingun in the middle of the Broken Piano and proceeds to /emote murder everyone in the room (As an example). The softclone/backups, whatever shouldn't factor in because your character shouldn't be put into that situation without your consent in the first place. I think the problem comes when someone /me's pulling a gun, and then someone else responds by /me'ing a rail rifle out of their arse, and then the grenades start coming out and before you know what happened you've got giant nanite spiders and impossibly strong robotic supersoldiers battling supermutants as they fall off the platform of a hanger bay (for example). So the worst way to respond is to escalate, the best way to respond is communication out of character and mutual understanding, with moderation stepping in if required. Consent is key, everything else really comes secondarily.

[Lyn Farel]

RP being a consensual activity is well and all, but that doesn't change the fact that we all play characters in the same universe. If player A and player B do not see things the same way and are unable to find a compromise, then A will continue to invent his stuff and B his own stuff, both conflicting each other. All well and good, they can ignore each other as suggested, but when it starts to involve other people, say player C, or even worse, a whole public audience, then it's where RP realistically can't just remain confined to its own isolated bubble. We are all affected eventually. And that's the damn issue where people disagree OOCly on things.

[Saede Riordan]

But there will never be perfect or complete OOC consensus on anything. It just isn't going to happen and we all know it. As long as the places our idea of the universe conflict aren't places where others will be forced into, I don't see it as an issue. I mean, there is an alliance of thousands of people that spam fofofofofofofofofofofofofofofo in local.

Everyone has their own slightly different headcanon, as long as the differences in how we envision the universe don't lead to cornering each other in nonfunctional RP conflicts, I don't see the issue. Its pretty easy to avoid too, you don't agree something exists a certain way? You don't have to make use of that thing. But if someone else does, as long as it doesn't force your character's hand (and how could it, RP being consensual and all?) it shouldn't be an issue.

[Lyn Farel]

How would you make your character (A) react when another character (B) brings up ICly something on which you as a player (p-A)  is in fundamental disagree with the other player behind (p-B) ?

Like the most stupid example but likely to happen :

Character B : "What do you think of soft clones ?"
Character A : "Soft clones do not exist"
Character B : "Of course they exist, I have several of them, as well as saves in an implant"
Character A : "Liar"

=> OOC drama.

Ok there, fine, players A and B start to ignore each other, as well as their characters.

____

Let's take another example. Someone says his character B has a special ability that you disagree with OOCly.

Character A and B take part in an event. Player B starts to use his ability even knowing you disagree with it, after all, he is free to have his fun too, which is legitimate.

How are you supposed to explain that to yourself, and your character ? How to react ICly after something like this happens ?

____

A well know and discussed case now.

Player A blows up player's B ship in space. There is nothing to loot, but player A claims that he abducted player B crew as part of his RP.

Player B disagrees OOCly and claims ICly that never happened.

Player A doesn't care and sells those slaves to someone else, player C, who starts to do all sort of stuff with them.

Eventually player A can still claim it's fake, that it's other people and not his crew and it will be up to everyone ICly to believe him or not. But it will still make a lot of OOC drama behind. That's basic godmodding, even out of good intentions.


At best it will lead to disagreeable solipsism, at worst both versions of what happened are conflicting.  Most of the time it will just be 2 versions of what happened conflicting but as they are exposed ICly, everyone can ICly deny them, so it's fine. But what isn't is the OOC behind.

[Synthia]

The only solution presented, again and again, with nobody saying anything new is:
"pre-script it all OOC", "small, trusted scenarios".
Which we already knew.
And which means, no surprises, nothing unexpected, nothing that isn't 100% pre-arranged.
Which means, that a scenario happening in a public setting, e.g. 2 players arranging something at someone else's event, where there will be players who are not in on the plot. those other players, will not be permitted to interact with RP that is happening in the same place as they are. A great big public snub.

[Lyn Farel]

I don't think there is a solution.

[Jace]

The solution is to not try to freaking assassinate people at events. I mean, seriously, it's not that hard. Soft clones are so widely accepted now due to PF hinting and CCP actors acknowledging them, I would be totally fine with ignoring someone ICly who tries to argue against them. But as far as random violence in public and crazy new unicorn technology, it is simple: don't do it. If you do it, prepare to be ignored like someone claiming their battleship has no crew.

People trying to invent new things that have no basis whatsoever in the Eve universe are typically just trying to be sexy and original. Sorry, this is an MMO. There is no originality from players - we are in a premade world with its own canon.