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[Shanty Anzomi]

Hey, this is my first post here, so hello… and I will need a little (a lot really) help with something in my mind. So, this can be a brainstorm, throwing ideas and if you have some references, drop it here.
My concern is about Caldari Navy and its operation.
My doubts come about how work CalNav, the State is divided into corporations, where everyone is like a little own state. You have the eight megas and their subsidiaries, but seem that CalNav and the army are autonomous.
At first time, I thought that CalNav could be financed by the big eights, but after think about it I feel that can be self-financed. They have a lot of income in taxes, sell of their military assets, and taking distribution contracts of others corps (and then their hire capsuleers for fullfill some of them).
And that is the first doubt… CalNav, is autonomous in matter of money? Or is financed by the big eights? Or a mix? They are loyal to the State, but how much authority they have and how much actions can perform by themselves… I refer to military actions.

Now, second.
Every corporation has their subsidiaries that perform different commercial activities in their own territory. Activities like food chains (restaurants), fashion, some kind of entertainment, sports, education, health, etc. In favor to give to their corp citizens the necessary for live while make them buy their stuff and consume their ideals.
This works for the big eights, but how is with CalNav? They can have subsidiaries for stuff like logistic, infrastructure, military furniture… but what with the rest?
They have the most visited station in the cluster and how is that? Maybe they let other corps to have their own franchises in Jita 4/4 (for a price) in order to satisfy the high and varied demand.
But how can they perform the same thing that the other corps controlling the consume of their citizens? You have CalNav script, so you need things to buy with it. And if you don’t live in Jita 4/4 and you are in a station or a district where only live the families of the workers of CalNav (not everyone are soldier there), how them spend their money?
Not everyone will be buying weapons and ships (well, the common workers can’t buy a ship), so, what happens with the clothes? Restaurants? Toys? Etc etc etc etc etc?
I believe that they can import some stuff, but if they want to have a control and they don't want that their money go to other corp, I think that they need to have subsidiaries that fulfill the necessities of their citizens that aren't soldiers.

And that is, help please XD

[Lyn Farel]

Hello,

I don't think that state institutions like CalNav, the CBT, or else, work like a megacorp. I see them more as governmental bodies.

But for its relationship regarding the eight megas and on what exactly are built Caldari state institutions, it's a good question...

[purple]

I've though about this before too, and I think it's mixed.    PF very explicitly says that the CEP provides a budget for the Navy - but the Navy also sells blueprints and other items and must collect a crap load of money in taxes from Jita and the mission hubs.   Usually if you see them protecting assets of a specific CEP member it's because that member has been assigned by the CEP with developing an area (like Black Rise or COSMOS) but once in a while you see them protecting corporate assets that clearly have nothing to do with any CEP projects (like if you run a mission for the Guristas that has you attack a SuVee target.) 

There is also that mission were they are assisting Amarrians in capturing slaves in the Fedeation/Republic.  I wonder if these two things mean they do merc work on the side.   

As for subsidiaries, I think Home Guard is very closely tied into the Caldari Navy.   I have no real proof mind you - but Kaalakiota is not just the biggest military contractor in the State but the biggest corp period. Kaalakiota has the strongest influence over the Navy and has a politcal agenda of preserving Caldari culture which of course is big on honoring the military, having military like discipline and even mimicking military uniforms in civilian fashion.      Also, while many of the big eight military branches are not space-borne; Home Guard is like mini-me clone of the Navy to the point that it's logo is practically plagiarism.   

I think there was a news article talking about the huge exchange of personnel between Home Guard and CalNav too.   None of that is proof, but I think Home Guard does a lot of work for the Navy - and that kaalakiota uses them to test equipment they want to sell to the Navy and that they train navy peeps on on how to use it after they test it.   Among many other things.

[Desiderya]

Day to day policing, black bag operations and asset protection is done through each megacorporations own security contractor (Home Guard, Lai Dai Protection Service, Ishukone Watch, etc).
The Caldari Navy is explicitily only existing for one purpose: Warfare. As such the majority of Navy assets are capital ships (including Battleships), usually only used on large scale conflict. The attack on Luminaire, following Heth's rise to power, was not possible with the Navy itself as the majority of the forces necessary were taken from megacorporate assets, if I remember the book that shall not be named correctly.

The question regarding financial independence, however, remains. I guess their prime income comes from the CEP - whether the Navy itself developed a corporate theme of trying to sell itself (Now - the new Caldari Navy Gallentean Fries! With Hot Sauce! FOR THE MOTHERLAND!) on all ends or not remains open. I would hazard a guess and say that they're using the money to do their job in an effective manner, not to make a profit on t-shirt sales. Infrastructure is likely managed by own services (There's a need for cooks in a military, after all) unless we're talking about the 'civilian areas' where you'll likely find all megacorporate versions of Caldari Fried Chicken, CFC(tm) and Valemart.

[Lyn Farel]

Now I think of it there must surely be a lot of backhanded power struggles between the megas for the control or favours of the CN...

[Desiderya]

What, power struggles? Never.
The question remains impossible to answer for us from a PF POV whether the Navy works as one of the proper (not just the big eight) megacorporations and governs subjects of its own - so can you be Kaalakiota citizen and a Caldari Navy Admiral, or will you basically switch citizenship upon joining the Navy. Because if CN works as a corporation in the caldari sense they'd also sit on the CEP and they'd also offer and expect the same kind of loyalities as other Megacorporations, making such a struggle for power quite unlikely as it is a 'sovereign' entity within the caldari govermental sphere.

[Katrina Oniseki]

There were a few chronicles or whatever that talked about a "War Council" that the CEP answers to. Even when Heth had de facto control over the CEP, he did not have control over the War Council, whatever that is. The War Council was vaguely described by Eterne and Falcon as the military command of the Caldari State.

Admiral Mininela Erinen (CN), and whatever other admirals, generals, and the like all sit on the War Council and were portrayed to have a certain level of autonomy from the rest of the CEP. So they could still refuse the CEP's orders if they felt certain political ass-hattery was going on, or if they felt the request was ridiculous/suicidal. ADM Erinen rebuked Heth's demands to outright invade the Gallente Federation, if I recall correctly.

I might be totes wrong tho.

[Jace]

Day to day policing, black bag operations and asset protection is done through each megacorporations own security contractor (Home Guard, Lai Dai Protection Service, Ishukone Watch, etc).
The Caldari Navy is explicitily only existing for one purpose: Warfare. As such the majority of Navy assets are capital ships (including Battleships), usually only used on large scale conflict. The attack on Luminaire, following Heth's rise to power, was not possible with the Navy itself as the majority of the forces necessary were taken from megacorporate assets, if I remember the book that shall not be named correctly.

The question regarding financial independence, however, remains. I guess their prime income comes from the CEP - whether the Navy itself developed a corporate theme of trying to sell itself (Now - the new Caldari Navy Gallentean Fries! With Hot Sauce! FOR THE MOTHERLAND!) on all ends or not remains open. I would hazard a guess and say that they're using the money to do their job in an effective manner, not to make a profit on t-shirt sales. Infrastructure is likely managed by own services (There's a need for cooks in a military, after all) unless we're talking about the 'civilian areas' where you'll likely find all megacorporate versions of Caldari Fried Chicken, CFC(tm) and Valemart.

The initial invasion also had the Caldari Marine Expeditionary Force, which is the marine subset of CalNav. But yes, as you said, the majority of the forces were megacorp/army. I don't have the link on hand (one of the reasons I'm working on a compendium...-.-), but somewhere it is mentioned that the CMEF was involved in the invasion and initial occupation, but after things became relatively stable they departed to leave the extended occupation to other forces.

[orange]

With the State, I tend to draw inspiration from the antebellum (pre-Civil War) United States of America. 

The rough parallel is that there is a union of several sovereign States/Corporations, which all have some responsibilities to the central, unifying government.  One of these is (or likely is) to provide and maintain a navy.

The Caldari Navy is answerable to the CEP for numerous things,  CEP holds the purse strings. At the same time the CN will have a lot of its own internal functions needed to execute the mission given it by the CEP.

but the Navy also sells blueprints and other items and must collect a crap load of money in taxes from Jita and the mission hubs.

The Navy also gives out a lot of ISK. I doubt Motsu makes enough ISK to pay the pilots spending the ISK they just took.

Now I think of it there must surely be a lot of backhanded power struggles between the megas for the control or favours of the CN...

I do not think it would be for control of the CN, but rather the funds it has to spend on expensive contracts.   I do not support the idea that the CN actually builds its own ships, weapons, and ammo, grow its own food, etc.

If all 8 Megas have to pay "their fair share"* into the CEP's treasury, then winning a CN contract means that a segment of the other 7's revenue/profit is going into the winning Mega's coffers.  In the end, the Megas will be lucky to break even on the transaction (damn capsuleers).

*Do the 8 Megas have to report revenue made in Empire, Republic, Federation, Syndicate to the CEP?

What, power struggles? Never.
The question remains impossible to answer for us from a PF POV whether the Navy works as one of the proper (not just the big eight) megacorporations and governs subjects of its own - so can you be Kaalakiota citizen and a Caldari Navy Admiral, or will you basically switch citizenship upon joining the Navy. Because if CN works as a corporation in the caldari sense they'd also sit on the CEP and they'd also offer and expect the same kind of loyalities as other Megacorporations, making such a struggle for power quite unlikely as it is a 'sovereign' entity within the caldari govermental sphere.

I think there is an opportunity for interesting story in this question.

If a person is raised a Kaalakiota citizen and joins the CN they retain the KK citizenship, but it is superseded by the CN regulations so long as they are an employee of the CN.  When the complete their service, KK is the structure to which they can automatically return.   Now consider a situation in which a corporation declares its intent to secede from the State and the high-ranking admiral is from that corporation.  Does the admiral follow his birth-corp and stay with the Navy he has been part of since he came of age?

[Shanty Anzomi]

Well, i got new ideas thanks to your posts, so thank you.

First of all, my concern is about the civil population in the Navy. People that aren’t soldiers like techs, logistics, workers, some instructors, family, etc etc etc etc

I believe that when the Navy was created they took citizens from all the corps. But after that I think that is not so convenient keep taking people from other corporations. We know that each corp have their own vision of the State, so different visions can clash between them and originate problems. Is more convenient if you have an entirely group of people that believe in one way. 
So with that in mind (and like a necessity after a while) the Navy could make military districts (like the military neighborhoods) to put the family of the soldiers and workers (civilians that work for the navy). Maybe the soldiers would want that their children be part of the Navy, so they raise the child in the corp, and this is convenient for the Navy because they avoid influence from another corp and can mold the child in their way of think.
But this brings new problems. If you have a military district (in a planet or station) you need more workers, people that take care of services, institutions like schools, hospitals, etc., and that is more civilians who will need a space to live.
So, you get money from the CEP and build this infrastructure for the Navy.
And here we have other problem. Money, you need to pay your soldiers and workers.
We know that the State have the script system. Every corp has their own script and with that they keep their citizens buying their stuff. So the soldiers must we paid in some kind of CalNav script. I don’t believe that they get pay in ISK because that is kind new.
So, the soldiers and workers get pay in CalNav script, and they need buy stuff, or pay services.
Now, I don’t think that the Navy got subsidiaries for everything. They can import a lot of stuff like furniture, electrodomestics, even restaurant branches and put to work there their own civilians that can be a lot after a couple of generations.
In the end they can be taking funds of the CEP. But they have their own infrastructure for their civilians and soldiers and whith this they avoid influence from other corporations in their people and with the script system most of the money return to the corp.

I think this is more like an evolution. They started like any military force and then evolve into some kind of corporation due the nature of the Caldari system.

[Lyn Farel]

Well Orange, likewise, I have the same feeling as well. I don't believe in the idea that CN = megacorp. When I talked about power struggles for the control of the CN, I think I used a poor wording. I should have said that they might look for its favour and the legitimacy it brings.

Ofc all the megas have their own private huge navy and can perfectly protect themselves and their assets, but why would they spit on CN help or support in a conflict when winning said support is like winning the lottery. Who would stand against the CN when you have them on your side ?

(gross analogy inc ->) Kindof like Daimyos in feudal Japan had their huge private armies, but having the Shogun on your side for a certain case brings you on another level of legitimacy (and power).

[purple]

With the State, I tend to draw inspiration from the antebellum (pre-Civil War) United States of America. 

The rough parallel is that there is a union of several sovereign States/Corporations, which all have some responsibilities to the central, unifying government.  One of these is (or likely is) to provide and maintain a navy.

The Caldari Navy is answerable to the CEP for numerous things,  CEP holds the purse strings. At the same time the CN will have a lot of its own internal functions needed to execute the mission given it by the CEP.

but the Navy also sells blueprints and other items and must collect a crap load of money in taxes from Jita and the mission hubs.

The Navy also gives out a lot of ISK. I doubt Motsu makes enough ISK to pay the pilots spending the ISK they just took.

Now I think of it there must surely be a lot of backhanded power struggles between the megas for the control or favours of the CN...

I do not think it would be for control of the CN, but rather the funds it has to spend on expensive contracts.   I do not support the idea that the CN actually builds its own ships, weapons, and ammo, grow its own food, etc.

If all 8 Megas have to pay "their fair share"* into the CEP's treasury, then winning a CN contract means that a segment of the other 7's revenue/profit is going into the winning Mega's coffers.  In the end, the Megas will be lucky to break even on the transaction (damn capsuleers).

*Do the 8 Megas have to report revenue made in Empire, Republic, Federation, Syndicate to the CEP?

What, power struggles? Never.
The question remains impossible to answer for us from a PF POV whether the Navy works as one of the proper (not just the big eight) megacorporations and governs subjects of its own - so can you be Kaalakiota citizen and a Caldari Navy Admiral, or will you basically switch citizenship upon joining the Navy. Because if CN works as a corporation in the caldari sense they'd also sit on the CEP and they'd also offer and expect the same kind of loyalities as other Megacorporations, making such a struggle for power quite unlikely as it is a 'sovereign' entity within the caldari govermental sphere.

I think there is an opportunity for interesting story in this question.

If a person is raised a Kaalakiota citizen and joins the CN they retain the KK citizenship, but it is superseded by the CN regulations so long as they are an employee of the CN.  When the complete their service, KK is the structure to which they can automatically return.   Now consider a situation in which a corporation declares its intent to secede from the State and the high-ranking admiral is from that corporation.  Does the admiral follow his birth-corp and stay with the Navy he has been part of since he came of age?

Navy only pays mission rewards, the CONCORD pays the bounties.

[Desiderya]

Well, it's still a lot. But we're entering ~mission~ territory, where it's content-on-demand and above all doesn't exactly matter whether you run CN or Home Guard missions, often there aren't even territorial differences (This system is the responsibility of X, the other of Y), suggesting some central pool of jobs and you only pick which franchise you want to run it for, which makes the entire logical reasonings you can deduce from this game mechanic more and more iffy, the deeper you want to delve into the matter.