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[Katrina Oniseki]

I pretty much agree with Des earlier post regarding 'Loyalist' as being a self proclaimed title that others accept.  My only comment would be that my own observations bear out that most any standard of 'proof', be it standings, or metrics, is typically ignored on a whim over the smallest disagreements, or just because it's convenient.  The difference between story driven conflict and pointless drama is a thin one, in pretty much any MMORP scene, and the latter rarely results in anything enjoyable.

Good point.

[Vikarion]

Well, this particular "fucked up hypocrite" finds that reading this thread has filled him with apathy.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Well, this particular "fucked up hypocrite" finds that reading this thread has filled him with apathy.

Nooooo! Bah. This thread has been a disaster.

Look, Vikarion, you're not a fucked up hypocrite. I know what Lyn said is inflammatory, but I'm not calling you out in this thread. I'm looking for an opinion on it. I'll PM you and hopefully we can talk in-game or something. :/

[Pieter Tuulinen]

Noone can see Mak's 9.6 Caldari State standing and 9.95 Ishukone Watch standing, but they can see Joe FWarrior's Strike Commander standing from cloaky stab plexing. Further, because most players have incursions and L4 missions down to a science, there's very little risk and it seems there's at least a little bit of derision on the IGS toward people trying to use missions as a way to say, "Hey, I'm loyal!" "Killing baseliner ships? Please."

There are so many arguments in favour of why actually doing pve is one of the most significant proofs of loyalism... Killing capsuleer ships is pointless, they are immortal, and not even actually part of the enemy faction.

NPC ships are. Kill them and you directly kick a faction where it hurts, and that's not even speaking about the ensued standing penalties / gains in consequence. PvE is one of the only activities that are directly linked to the actual NPC world. The one that actually matters to me, but that's precisely it : it is because that is what matters to me, a roleplayer, that I will naturally add more emphasis on it in terms of significance.

Except this is all bullshit, because Highsec PvE is NOT connected to the NPC gameworld and carries very little risk. The crises you are responding to are created out of whole cloth the moment you click 'Request Mission'. You then climb into your (virtually) safe blingmachine and are handheld as you soar your way to a cluster(fuck) of ships that are basically obsolete, underpowered and stupid.

After slaughtering supposed millions of bad guys in a battle (singlehandedly) you return to a very luke warm reception and the capsuleer equivalent of a small envelope full of fivers. The worlds-shattering crisis that you supposedly averted then despawns, never to  be seen or referenced again.

They don't even count the ships you destroy. Whatever you wipe out is immediately replaced from stocks - despite the fact that only Sansha should really have that capacity. In fact Sansha can afford to support the losses from missions, ratting in Stain AND Incursions, quite comfortably.

You talk about the Forever War? What kind of dent has been put in Serpentis, Gurista, Sansha Blooder et al operations by High Sec Missioning?

[Katrina Oniseki]

Excellent description, Pieter. In the current state of the game, you're absolutely correct in that they are laughably easy and considered the second-to-bottom rung of EVE's gameplay with only highsec mining regarded with more derision. It's boring, predictable, and far too easy with today's ships. It's languishing without developer attention, despite their promises to revamp the whole missioning aspect of the game.

HOWEVER, mission agents and the capsuleers they hand out jobs to have been referenced in the books and chronicles as something important to the gameworld, and I think it's a mistake to ignore that because the actual game mechanic is vastly outdated and stale.

For now, I am in complete agreement that it simply cannot be used in RP the way it is. Do I want it to be a valid RP leverage point? Of course! But I realize it can't be right now. I think, given some serious developer attention to make it challenging and immersive again, we can get to a point where missioning of all types, even down to level 1 highsec missions, can be something worth the respect of other characters.

As a side note, how similar are missions to bunker capturing and plexing and such? I've never done FW, so I don't know how those hybrid PvE-PvP sites work. Disregarding the PvP aspect of it... say, assume that nobody ever bothers you while you do it... are the NPCs there stronger or equal to mission NPCs? What different behaviors do they exhibit? Is there truth to the rumor that these sites are handled by single warp stabbed frigates? Are they also created 'out of the cloth'?

[Vikarion]

Well, this particular "fucked up hypocrite" finds that reading this thread has filled him with apathy.

Nooooo! Bah. This thread has been a disaster.

Look, Vikarion, you're not a fucked up hypocrite. I know what Lyn said is inflammatory, but I'm not calling you out in this thread. I'm looking for an opinion on it. I'll PM you and hopefully we can talk in-game or something. :/

I'm not upset. I'm just...not sure how to respond.

I'll just respond to what you've said, I think.

First, I do appreciate some of the things you've done. The Asakai support, although sadly ill-fated, was nonetheless awesome. But there are a few negatives on your plate that you have to deal with, and a few positives that you aren't taking advantage of.

On the negative side, you tend to self-sabotage. For example, in the kablooiee of a thread on the IGS that was a result of CCP's latest attempt at killing interest in live activities, you apparently decided that the best way to defend your participation was to question the loyalty of those who didn't show up. That's generally considered a dick move, not least because many people can't make it to live events. (Or, like me, you have sworn eternal unending vengeance against them.) It's also kind of a dumb PR move, because, frankly, the fastest way to get other loyalists to start dropping bombs is to intimate that they aren't as loyal as you, because they didn't do something. You may not have meant it that way, but it sure looked that way.

On the positive side, you need to learn how to use propaganda effectively. Because I-RED does not. I don't mean flashy posters. I mean the steady feeding of a certain version of the truth. You don't need to attack your attackers - it's fun, but as an organization, it is generally a pleasure to be abstained from. Don't write "unlike X, we actually showed up to the State's call". Write "...we felt that we were obligated to answer the call of the State, and while the results were unfortunate, we believe that the call to duty cannot be ignored". What's another loyalist to say to that? And yet, it contains all the criticism and self-justification of the first one.

Also, you need to get your story out there. Many wars are won not just by which side is capable of winning, but by which side tells its story the best - to itself and to others. And this usually means engaging with people on the IGS, for us RPers. Otherwise, your opposition's story is the only one which is heard. There are a few rules for this, too:

1. You are awesome - but not ridiculously so. Admit defeats, but qualify them. "We will continue to resist", etc. Act gracious in victory, preferably after claiming anything you reasonably can as a victory.
2. Never admit complete fault. Even if your product is causing men to become pregnant with vicious weasels, you "regret that a small percentage of users are suffering from side effects". It's not your fault that Caldari militia are mad at you, for "you regret that a small portion of the militia is attempting to create division in our joint struggle".
3. Learn how to counter-punch. When someone accuses you of shooting blues, establish the "Blue Orphans Donation Fund Grant Thing". If someone says that you are harvesting 101 dalmatians for their coats, have video ready of you nursing a sick scottish terrier. Then point out that your opponent is wearing polka dots and wonder aloud if they might be projecting. And better yet, do a few of these things before hand. That way, when someone accuses you of hamster squishing, you can go "how can you possibly accuse us of such a terrible crime? Doesn't anyone realize that we founded the Hamster Preservation Society last year?!?"

And, lastly, if you want loyalists to have your back, stop sniping at them so much, and at common enemies so little. My general rule is that I need about 5-7 anti-someone-else posts for every "you suck at being Caldari" post. Because, let's admit it: one of the best things about being Caldari is that we ARE better than everyone else.    So, you need to demonstrate that. Sure, Kat thinks that Vikarion is a total patriot douche, but she'd make sweet, sweet love to him and every other patriot and practical before she'd give a Gallente model a kiss. Why? Because fuck them, that's why. We're family. Sure, I hate you and you hate me, but only when there isn't someone else around to really keep us busy.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

Well, the threat in a Militia Complex is NEVER the npcs. They are simply there to ensure you can't run a plex in a ship without guns anymore. The threat in complexes is, well, people. People who are sneaky. People who cheat. People who want you dead - however they have to do it.

They might do it by bringing a Dramiel to a Merlin fight. They might do it by jumping in with 19 friends. They might fly a small gang with links and drugs.

Anyway, talking about ship kills only really works Capsuleer vs Capsuleer, IMO. Nobody with any credibility talks about how many NPC (baseliner) battleships they smoked last week (way more than you militia dweebs!). Which is NOT to say that I don't nod and smile when people talk about running Internal Security ops for the Corps making them Loyalists. It absolutely does! It just means that they have to be really vague about what they've done. They can't go into details - unless they make them up. When Lowsec and FW pilots can talk about specific battles - hell, we can talk about individual kills, and back them up with an ingame report that corroborates our deeds.

Perhaps that makes missioners defensive. Perhaps it makes the rest of us unwarrantedly arrogant. I don't know the answer to that.

[Katrina Oniseki]

On the negative side, you tend to self-sabotage. For example, in the kablooiee of a thread on the IGS that was a result of CCP's latest attempt at killing interest in live activities, you apparently decided that the best way to defend your participation was to question the loyalty of those who didn't show up. That's generally considered a dick move, not least because many people can't make it to live events. (Or, like me, you have sworn eternal unending vengeance against them.) It's also kind of a dumb PR move, because, frankly, the fastest way to get other loyalists to start dropping bombs is to intimate that they aren't as loyal as you, because they didn't do something. You may not have meant it that way, but it sure looked that way.

Yeah that wasn't the intended point. I wasn't trying to say anyone is less loyal at all, but that's how it was taken. So the fault is on me for poorly presenting my posts. I admit defeat in that category, honestly. The takeaway from that is actually then to 'be more careful about what you say'.

On the positive side, you need to learn how to use propaganda effectively. Because I-RED does not. I don't mean flashy posters. I mean the steady feeding of a certain version of the truth. You don't need to attack your attackers - it's fun, but as an organization, it is generally a pleasure to be abstained from. Don't write "unlike X, we actually showed up to the State's call". Write "...we felt that we were obligated to answer the call of the State, and while the results were unfortunate, we believe that the call to duty cannot be ignored". What's another loyalist to say to that? And yet, it contains all the criticism and self-justification of the first one.

Good advice. I've been wary of using propaganda, ironically, because of failures as seen above.

Also, you need to get your story out there. Many wars are won not just by which side is capable of winning, but by which side tells its story the best - to itself and to others. And this usually means engaging with people on the IGS, for us RPers. Otherwise, your opposition's story is the only one which is heard. There are a few rules for this, too:

1. You are awesome - but not ridiculously so. Admit defeats, but qualify them. "We will continue to resist", etc. Act gracious in victory, preferably after claiming anything you reasonably can as a victory.
2. Never admit complete fault. Even if your product is causing men to become pregnant with vicious weasels, you "regret that a small percentage of users are suffering from side effects". It's not your fault that Caldari militia are mad at you, for "you regret that a small portion of the militia is attempting to create division in our joint struggle".
3. Learn how to counter-punch. When someone accuses you of shooting blues, establish the "Blue Orphans Donation Fund Grant Thing". If someone says that you are harvesting 101 dalmatians for their coats, have video ready of you nursing a sick scottish terrier. Then point out that your opponent is wearing polka dots and wonder aloud if they might be projecting. And better yet, do a few of these things before hand. That way, when someone accuses you of hamster squishing, you can go "how can you possibly accuse us of such a terrible crime? Doesn't anyone realize that we founded the Hamster Preservation Society last year?!?"

We have something in the works atm. We're going to start making posts very soon.

And, lastly, if you want loyalists to have your back, stop sniping at them so much, and at common enemies so little. My general rule is that I need about 5-7 anti-someone-else posts for every "you suck at being Caldari" post. Because, let's admit it: one of the best things about being Caldari is that we ARE better than everyone else.    So, you need to demonstrate that.

I will start shitting on pirates more often? Will that help? I-RED doesn't officially take issue with the Fed atm, so Kat can't go off the fuckin' handle at them as much as she'd like to... but she can certainly rag on pirates!

Sure, Kat thinks that Vikarion is a total patriot douche, but she'd make sweet, sweet love to him and every other patriot and practical before she'd give a Gallente model a kiss. Why? Because fuck them, that's why. We're family. Sure, I hate you and you hate me, but only when there isn't someone else around to really keep us busy.

You haven't met Erys, have you? She's actually half Caldari, so I get your point though. Kat does pretty much despise the Federation itself. She just keeps it quiet.

[Vic Van Meter]

Noone can see Mak's 9.6 Caldari State standing and 9.95 Ishukone Watch standing, but they can see Joe FWarrior's Strike Commander standing from cloaky stab plexing. Further, because most players have incursions and L4 missions down to a science, there's very little risk and it seems there's at least a little bit of derision on the IGS toward people trying to use missions as a way to say, "Hey, I'm loyal!" "Killing baseliner ships? Please."

There are so many arguments in favour of why actually doing pve is one of the most significant proofs of loyalism... Killing capsuleer ships is pointless, they are immortal, and not even actually part of the enemy faction.

NPC ships are. Kill them and you directly kick a faction where it hurts, and that's not even speaking about the ensued standing penalties / gains in consequence. PvE is one of the only activities that are directly linked to the actual NPC world. The one that actually matters to me, but that's precisely it : it is because that is what matters to me, a roleplayer, that I will naturally add more emphasis on it in terms of significance.

Except this is all bullshit, because Highsec PvE is NOT connected to the NPC gameworld and carries very little risk. The crises you are responding to are created out of whole cloth the moment you click 'Request Mission'. You then climb into your (virtually) safe blingmachine and are handheld as you soar your way to a cluster(fuck) of ships that are basically obsolete, underpowered and stupid.

After slaughtering supposed millions of bad guys in a battle (singlehandedly) you return to a very luke warm reception and the capsuleer equivalent of a small envelope full of fivers. The worlds-shattering crisis that you supposedly averted then despawns, never to  be seen or referenced again.

They don't even count the ships you destroy. Whatever you wipe out is immediately replaced from stocks - despite the fact that only Sansha should really have that capacity. In fact Sansha can afford to support the losses from missions, ratting in Stain AND Incursions, quite comfortably.

You talk about the Forever War? What kind of dent has been put in Serpentis, Gurista, Sansha Blooder et al operations by High Sec Missioning?

Yeah, but isn't that an OOC distinction?  I mean, if you want to put more emphasis on FW, that's fine, it's completely your decision.  But ICly, I don't think the Caldari State is rolling their eyes at people protecting their freight lines from the Guristas.  They probably aren't doing that for the Gallente either, but I think we're kind of all applying OOC dramaz to an IC question.  Either way, one less ship, pirate or capsuleer, is one less ship at that particular minute.  It's less crew from that faction that they have to replace.  It's one less ship in the ratio that determines who "rules" that part of space.

If anything, though, I'd say they at least have an agreement saying the Gallente can't wholesale invade Caldari space while pirates have no such agreement.  On the other hand, it isn't like the Caldari have any reason to believe that and the Gallente are at least technically a bigger entity.  On the other, other hand, the pirate factions do seem to have a lot of sleeper tech that can tip the balance.

I just don't really worry that much about what in particular people are killing.  Loyalty is more of a character trait, and the combat can seem just as pointless whichever way you look at it.  OOC it's a different story and the dick-comparing shall continue, but I don't know that it's a big distinction as far as the Caldari State is concerned.

Maybe it's just years of architecture school and practice making my pride completely bulletproof, but it's really hard for me to care about in-game accomplishments or even bother to look them up to verify whether someone is "legit."  If they can RP it intelligently and intriguingly, I wouldn't care if someone said he was a grimy mercenary no matter where he spent his time in-game.  I think the emphasis on game stats and mechanics to affect IC issues sometimes takes these proverbial gods-in ships and hardened starfighters and just makes them sound like raging video gamers.

I've tried to roll that into my RP a bit, but if anything, that's why FW kind of doesn't seem as interesting as an IC background to me.  The RP bickering between factions and even within imperial groups from PVPers to everyone else very much sounds like video gamers bitching at one of the LAN parties we used to throw.  Luckily, you've kind of avoided that by getting away from the pettiness of it all, but that's sort of my personal reason for not bothering to look up anyone's killboard.  It seriously wouldn't make a difference if you hadn't killed anyone all year, Pieter's an interesting character and I think you're a pretty good roleplayer.  I'd give you exactly the same reaction.

I would say that you shouldn't call yourself the master of starship gladiator dueling unless you're willing to get called out on it.  Don't play a character that's smarter than you are, don't play a character more charming than you are, and don't play a character with better shipboard combat skills than you've got.  There's a reason I play a pair of characters who are known for things that don't involve ship combat; you can't play a character that can invest more time into learning how to PVP than you do IRL.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

Maybe it's my experience roleplaying in other MMORPGS talking - Where every activity is a completely unimpactful venture conjured purely out of thin air to service the quest the player is currently on - But it seems sort of blendy (in the IC/OOC capacity) to say that completing PvP content is more "real" within the context of the setting then completing PvE stuff. That'd be like a character in a play deriding, as that character, another character because their action scene was orchestrated using a combination of props and special effects rather then with an actual fight with another actor. From the perspective of an audience member, it would be a fair to comment that the first fight was quite a bit tackier, but the character has no business drawing a distinction.

And besides, despite CCP's claims otherwise, Eve isn't remotely real. It's a video game. Everything that happens in it is just the product of constructs they have created to provide the players with enjoyment. The only difference is the size of the construct you happen to partake in, be they tiny (missions), medium sized (faction warfare) or massive (sov warfare). They're all fairly stagnant sandboxes in the end, with just variable amounts of time before it rains and get washed back to how they started.

Fake edit: Oh, other people basically said this already. Well, that's what I get for spending 3 hours going back and fourth to typing up a short post.

[V. Gesakaarin]

Thing is, if all you're doing is running missions then from a certain IC perspective it's justifiable that nothing really separates your character from the countless thousands of other military contractors doing exactly the same. It's the same with doing industry or trade. The distinctions lie in how you portray your character, much like in the real world personality counts for a lot. The same could be said for doing PvP. Thing is for me, when people end up trying to portray a character that isn't congruent with what's happening in-game. If all you do is missions, industry, or trade then try to play some sort of hardened badass then don't get your panties in a knot if those other capsuleers who shoot other capsuleers look up your KB and go, "Oh really guy?" It's the same as if I tried to pass Veikitamo Gesakaarin as a philanthropist who cares about the children, then complained if people called her to account on her outlaw sec status and all the spaceships she's exploded in lowsec. Everything is a matter of perspective and you can't tell other players or characters how they should view your own.

The only qualifier of any importance to me is if your character does as they say and it doesn't matter if it's exploration, industry, trade, missions, or whatever else you want to do in the game. However, if you remain unsatisfied that your character isn't being treated the way you think they should be, then at least recognize that if there's going to be any pretense of realism in RP then of course there's going to be varying opinions and perspectives about them that can change over time -- that's a good thing.

The reason why I hate the very concept of loyalist as it applies to Eve is that it's always going to be a denial of subtlety and varied perspective. It just makes everything black and white, loyalist or not, that makes RP boring as fuck. I've never been concerned about it, but it always seems like every character I might interact with has players that want to be some kind of loyalist stereotype and get into some kind of who is more loyal recognition/popularity contest.

Screw that, I've worked long and hard to ensure there's enough legitimate excuses to loathe either myself, my characters, and the organization they are a part of to care all too much. I also sure didn't join FW to impress upon others how uber-loyal and special my character in it is, I do it because I enjoy PvP and it made sense given what I say my character is: A Caldari military contractor. But all I detect all the time is that the only major concern for so many remains peer validation of some form so why even bother trying to put the effort in at building depth or complexity in external interaction if all that is desired is some kind of bland stereotypes for approval.

[Lyn Farel]

So people complain that FW is terrible because there's no objectives and no conclusion to it etc. Then say that running highsec missions for hours on end doing the same repetitive missions while shooting at AI is their idea of interactive and engaging RP as a "loyalist"?

Okay then.

Why not just be honest and say you want to be recognized and validated as a loyalist while spinning ships in station then?

Noone can see Mak's 9.6 Caldari State standing and 9.95 Ishukone Watch standing, but they can see Joe FWarrior's Strike Commander standing from cloaky stab plexing. Further, because most players have incursions and L4 missions down to a science, there's very little risk and it seems there's at least a little bit of derision on the IGS toward people trying to use missions as a way to say, "Hey, I'm loyal!" "Killing baseliner ships? Please."

There are so many arguments in favour of why actually doing pve is one of the most significant proofs of loyalism... Killing capsuleer ships is pointless, they are immortal, and not even actually part of the enemy faction.

NPC ships are. Kill them and you directly kick a faction where it hurts, and that's not even speaking about the ensued standing penalties / gains in consequence. PvE is one of the only activities that are directly linked to the actual NPC world. The one that actually matters to me, but that's precisely it : it is because that is what matters to me, a roleplayer, that I will naturally add more emphasis on it in terms of significance.

Except this is all bullshit, because Highsec PvE is NOT connected to the NPC gameworld and carries very little risk. The crises you are responding to are created out of whole cloth the moment you click 'Request Mission'. You then climb into your (virtually) safe blingmachine and are handheld as you soar your way to a cluster(fuck) of ships that are basically obsolete, underpowered and stupid.

After slaughtering supposed millions of bad guys in a battle (singlehandedly) you return to a very luke warm reception and the capsuleer equivalent of a small envelope full of fivers. The worlds-shattering crisis that you supposedly averted then despawns, never to  be seen or referenced again.

They don't even count the ships you destroy. Whatever you wipe out is immediately replaced from stocks - despite the fact that only Sansha should really have that capacity. In fact Sansha can afford to support the losses from missions, ratting in Stain AND Incursions, quite comfortably.

You talk about the Forever War? What kind of dent has been put in Serpentis, Gurista, Sansha Blooder et al operations by High Sec Missioning?

Wait a minute...

I was merely saying that fighting for pve agents is no less loyalism than fighting in FW. I may have personal opinions (especially IC opinions) on why FW is pointless, but it doesnt mean that the people taking part in it are no loyalists... Actually they are.

And by definition you don't spin ships in station to work out your standings, unless you have a secret method to run missions while spinning my ships, because I would be rather interested tbh considering how boring missions are !

Well, this particular "fucked up hypocrite" finds that reading this thread has filled him with apathy.

Nooooo! Bah. This thread has been a disaster.

Look, Vikarion, you're not a fucked up hypocrite. I know what Lyn said is inflammatory, but I'm not calling you out in this thread. I'm looking for an opinion on it. I'll PM you and hopefully we can talk in-game or something. :/

What the hell inflammatory did I say ? o_O

[Arista Shahni]

Because, let's admit it: one of the best things about being Caldari is that we ARE better than everyone else.   

*slips slightly out of context.

Told ya, Veik.

The shitslinging in this thread may continue.

[Lyn Farel]

Discussions about loyalism pretty much revolves around dick waving and epeens contests anyway Veik, so I couldnt agree more...

It's basically "i'm more loyal than you" "no u"...

Anyway, what Gwen said...

Well, the threat in a Militia Complex is NEVER the npcs. They are simply there to ensure you can't run a plex in a ship without guns anymore. The threat in complexes is, well, people. People who are sneaky. People who cheat. People who want you dead - however they have to do it.

They might do it by bringing a Dramiel to a Merlin fight. They might do it by jumping in with 19 friends. They might fly a small gang with links and drugs.

Anyway, talking about ship kills only really works Capsuleer vs Capsuleer, IMO. Nobody with any credibility talks about how many NPC (baseliner) battleships they smoked last week (way more than you militia dweebs!). Which is NOT to say that I don't nod and smile when people talk about running Internal Security ops for the Corps making them Loyalists. It absolutely does! It just means that they have to be really vague about what they've done. They can't go into details - unless they make them up. When Lowsec and FW pilots can talk about specific battles - hell, we can talk about individual kills, and back them up with an ingame report that corroborates our deeds.

Perhaps that makes missioners defensive. Perhaps it makes the rest of us unwarrantedly arrogant. I don't know the answer to that.

I don't think a lot of people actually claim they have killed millions of NPC battleships.. Except a few exceptions on the IGS from time to time... Who cares anyway ?

As you say we just have standings to prove that we deal in internal security contracts or whatever, and it's enough to my eyes to consider it as a good proof of loyalism, since it may be as pointless as FW considering the results ingame (nothing changes), but as I said it's still the NPC world and not independant capsuleers...

Noone can see Mak's 9.6 Caldari State standing and 9.95 Ishukone Watch standing, but they can see Joe FWarrior's Strike Commander standing from cloaky stab plexing. Further, because most players have incursions and L4 missions down to a science, there's very little risk and it seems there's at least a little bit of derision on the IGS toward people trying to use missions as a way to say, "Hey, I'm loyal!" "Killing baseliner ships? Please."

There are so many arguments in favour of why actually doing pve is one of the most significant proofs of loyalism... Killing capsuleer ships is pointless, they are immortal, and not even actually part of the enemy faction.

NPC ships are. Kill them and you directly kick a faction where it hurts, and that's not even speaking about the ensued standing penalties / gains in consequence. PvE is one of the only activities that are directly linked to the actual NPC world. The one that actually matters to me, but that's precisely it : it is because that is what matters to me, a roleplayer, that I will naturally add more emphasis on it in terms of significance.

Except this is all bullshit, because Highsec PvE is NOT connected to the NPC gameworld and carries very little risk. The crises you are responding to are created out of whole cloth the moment you click 'Request Mission'. You then climb into your (virtually) safe blingmachine and are handheld as you soar your way to a cluster(fuck) of ships that are basically obsolete, underpowered and stupid.

After slaughtering supposed millions of bad guys in a battle (singlehandedly) you return to a very luke warm reception and the capsuleer equivalent of a small envelope full of fivers. The worlds-shattering crisis that you supposedly averted then despawns, never to  be seen or referenced again.

They don't even count the ships you destroy. Whatever you wipe out is immediately replaced from stocks - despite the fact that only Sansha should really have that capacity. In fact Sansha can afford to support the losses from missions, ratting in Stain AND Incursions, quite comfortably.

You talk about the Forever War? What kind of dent has been put in Serpentis, Gurista, Sansha Blooder et al operations by High Sec Missioning?

Yeah, but isn't that an OOC distinction?  I mean, if you want to put more emphasis on FW, that's fine, it's completely your decision.  But ICly, I don't think the Caldari State is rolling their eyes at people protecting their freight lines from the Guristas.  They probably aren't doing that for the Gallente either, but I think we're kind of all applying OOC dramaz to an IC question.  Either way, one less ship, pirate or capsuleer, is one less ship at that particular minute.  It's less crew from that faction that they have to replace.  It's one less ship in the ratio that determines who "rules" that part of space.

If anything, though, I'd say they at least have an agreement saying the Gallente can't wholesale invade Caldari space while pirates have no such agreement.  On the other hand, it isn't like the Caldari have any reason to believe that and the Gallente are at least technically a bigger entity.  On the other, other hand, the pirate factions do seem to have a lot of sleeper tech that can tip the balance.

I just don't really worry that much about what in particular people are killing.  Loyalty is more of a character trait, and the combat can seem just as pointless whichever way you look at it.  OOC it's a different story and the dick-comparing shall continue, but I don't know that it's a big distinction as far as the Caldari State is concerned.

Maybe it's just years of architecture school and practice making my pride completely bulletproof, but it's really hard for me to care about in-game accomplishments or even bother to look them up to verify whether someone is "legit."  If they can RP it intelligently and intriguingly, I wouldn't care if someone said he was a grimy mercenary no matter where he spent his time in-game.  I think the emphasis on game stats and mechanics to affect IC issues sometimes takes these proverbial gods-in ships and hardened starfighters and just makes them sound like raging video gamers.

I've tried to roll that into my RP a bit, but if anything, that's why FW kind of doesn't seem as interesting as an IC background to me.  The RP bickering between factions and even within imperial groups from PVPers to everyone else very much sounds like video gamers bitching at one of the LAN parties we used to throw.  Luckily, you've kind of avoided that by getting away from the pettiness of it all, but that's sort of my personal reason for not bothering to look up anyone's killboard.  It seriously wouldn't make a difference if you hadn't killed anyone all year, Pieter's an interesting character and I think you're a pretty good roleplayer.  I'd give you exactly the same reaction.

I would say that you shouldn't call yourself the master of starship gladiator dueling unless you're willing to get called out on it.  Don't play a character that's smarter than you are, don't play a character more charming than you are, and don't play a character with better shipboard combat skills than you've got.  There's a reason I play a pair of characters who are known for things that don't involve ship combat; you can't play a character that can invest more time into learning how to PVP than you do IRL.

Yes pretty much. I only refer to KBs and standings or whatever to "back up my claims", as they say. 

[V. Gesakaarin]

Maybe it's this combination of cold vodka and warm sauerkraut talking here but some days it just feels like the wild west in here, except the tumbleweeds drift by and all the gunslingers are inside the saloon discussing the finer points of whether to wear their six shooters on the left side or the right side, or if indeed it really is better to have duels at high noon. All the while complaining just how damn boring it can be out there on the frontier.