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[Ava Starfire]

So, yeah.

Now, after 6 months of endless "Rawr, Matari bad!" as a result of the massive derpsplosion that was the Coleile/Brouteau arc, I am now set upon by people who claim Ava isnt "Minny" enough for... for whatever. I went from being the punching bag of the community for the evils of Minny society (that is basically what it was there for a month or two) to this... what?

So, let me ask this; are there reasonable standards, to which the community can hold someone who expects to be seen as a member of a faction "in good standing" and where is the line? At this point, Ava's "minny cred' is pretty well established, frankly, but three people have now made the comment, IC, that somehow she is all bad and not Minny for daring to leave faction warfare/EM.

At what point do reasonable expectations just become derp?

[Kunarian]

Ignore them, you're an established Minmatar. It's like that in real life too as I'm sure we're all aware. In all factions similar things happen, the RP Amarr have a brutally effective religious propoganda campaign that makes people not want to RP non-religious Amarr, the RP Gallente enforce liberalism and 'openmindedness' such upon their members, the RP Caldari act upon the RP ideas of nationalism and anti-Gallenteness.

The militant Matari are calling you out because you want to do something else. Don't let them have you, justify it IC, to be any one of the main faction cultures you don't need to be slaughtering your juxtaposed empire.

It's all RP and it's like the real world, the biggest characters force everyone else to be like them. Harden your resolve and make yourself a fortress. The worst thing that can happen is that you bend to them unless you want your character to as a point of development?

[Vic Van Meter]

Yeah, those people can go to Hell.  I still get mail to this day about Constantin along those lines.

[Desiderya]

Tell them to man up and stop relying on others to do their work. Also tell them to suck a thing of their choice.

[Lyn Farel]

It's always the same tyranny of the mainstream vs marginals. Don't worry too much, it's normal...

[Saede Riordan]

I hate the idea that 'you aren't a REAL member of xyz faction unless you are in FacWar' I really really hate it, and in that way, I think FW has done tremendous harm to RP. Its getting to the point where any character of some age can see the futility of FW, which, I've seen a few people ICly coining the Pendulum Wars, which I really like, and I feel speaks well to the futility of the conflict. I still consider my character Sebiestor, and I'm sure I get quite a bit of 'nope not minmatar' directed at me. I think there are many ways to play a character, and many ways to play a character as part of a faction. Tell the people who say you're doing it wrong to fuck right off.

[Ashley]

*cough cough* probably a good time to join PIE Inc. or any other amarr rp corp. *cough cough*

On a more serious note:

Why should your character cares what those people think, are they  clan chiefs or tribal leaders? If no, then why do your character thinks that their opinion are of any relevance.

If you want to make enemies, try to change some things. And if I understand correctly Ava is doing just that, so ripples are to be expected.

Keep your head up high, and do what you do.

[Morwen Lagann]

I hate the idea that 'you aren't a REAL member of xyz faction unless you are in FacWar' I really really hate it, and in that way, I think FW has done tremendous harm to RP.

Pretty much this, and I didn't really -start- RPing until after FW, so I got to witness the resulting decline from day one. Intra-faction conflict has basically regressed to little more than passive-aggressive frothing and sniping on the IGS and has no real substance beyond that.

You used to see wardecs. Aggressive propaganda campaigns. Actual blood sweat and tears being put into and shed over that stuff.

Now it's just "if you're not in FW you're not a loyalist and you suck and nobody gives a fuck what you say" and "yeah, we'll get to dealing with them after FW is over".

... Wat. All of mine.

[Saede Riordan]

"After facwar is over"


Ahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

[Laurentis Thiesant]

Then lets do things that subvert this.
Lets break that and do the things.

I was going through old IGS posts the other day, and I came across the storyline that was the ILF/Moira war. Several FDU corporations (including Strix I believe) sanctioned Moira for their actions. Several jumped onside with Moira. Others stayed neutral (such as the Eleutherians).

In that one event, in the grand scope of Gallente RP - there were three different groupings directly at work internally with a disagreement over a core issue, but who still worked together against the Caldari.

Then of course there were the Intaki Separatists themselves involved, as well Caldari groups like I-RED with interests in the area.
While FW was the 'catalyst' - with allegations of the ILF feeding intel about the Gallenteans to the Caldari, the whole storyline, all the positioning, and most importantly all the propaganda ('evidence' from all sides, anecdotes, statements, and so on) were completely player generated.

FW doesn't have to be the death of diverse intra-factional play.
It doesn't help - but it can be resisted.

That only thing stopping it is if we are happy to consign all that to the past.
Lets doooo things.

Urdoinitwrong is a great source of RP - to try and be on topic with the thread.

[Lyn Farel]

As much as I despise as well the trope that not being in militia means that you are not a loyalist, I do not think that this is the root of the problem.

Remove FW, get back to the old days where intra factional conflict we all love, and you will soon see a lot of finger pointing and war decs against other loyalists that happen to think differently. And most of the time, if that's not mainstream, they will have a really difficult hard time not to eat crows like Ava did here. FW or no FW. It's kindof expected since it's more or less realistic, what is more annoying is when it's pushing it a little too far.

I mean, I can understand Ava to be perfectly unlucky and draw the ire of people like radicals and UK that have opposed ideals (yay, intra factional conflict at last !), while at the same time they do not even have the guts to tell that in the face of Electus Matari that happens to have a similar stance. Well use that against them Ava btw.

What I find a bit more hilarious is that all the Matari that got the ire from federal loyalists were actually the softer ones, like Ava or EM members. Because they were the only ones to be here at the time and thus those loyalists dealt with what they got and thrashed you instead of the real supporter of the attack on Colelie...

Somewhere though, maybe it's a sign that your character is important enough to garner so many critics... Just use EM as a shield, I don't know. Make them call EM traitors and we will see if they continue. But heh, that's all IC anyway, and should be dealt ICly imo.

[Esna Pitoojee]

I hate the idea that 'you aren't a REAL member of xyz faction unless you are in FacWar' I really really hate it, and in that way, I think FW has done tremendous harm to RP.

QFT, and I'm glad that so far Esna's been able to dodge that particular bullet.

Ava, I'm going to add my voice to the people saying that you shouldn't get upset at the people going off on Ava, but should instead work to prove them wrong. Make it abundantly clear that there are other ways to be Matari than to sit in FW going "Rawr evil slavers", and make other examples available to other people who'd want to follow that.

[Arista Shahni]

Already said this in OOC:  Don't need FW to be a loyalist.

'Capsuleer Loyalists' is a bit skewed anyway - its like a bunch of expatriots fighting over their old country's football games and hanging flags during the world cup.  Other than that, they live in a completely different place than they used to.  And then there's everyone else who doesn't watch sports.  vOv

[Vincent Pryce]

'Capsuleer Loyalists' is a bit skewed anyway - its like a bunch of expatriots fighting over their old country's football games and hanging flags during the world cup.  Other than that, they live in a completely different place than they used to.  And then there's everyone else who doesn't watch sports.  vOv

Well said, I think I am starting to like you.

I think Ava's problem is twofold why people are eager to give a go at her "matari cred". Not only is she not in FW, it's that she is in a corp that is not strictly minmatar loyalist or even loosely allied. It is a corp that is unaffiliated with any major organization or entity and it houses different loyalties under it's roof, some of which are polar opposites. I think as many people are intrigued by this concept there are people who find it hard to accept since it does not fit their view of how things should be and it's always easy target the more vocal members of the group and go for the low hanging fruit.

As far as I am concerned Ava is a full fledged matari, just because she is not in a matari corp doesn't make her any less of a one, since the corp is not diametrically opposed of matari interests. Some of the members might have personal agendas and opinions about the Republic and matari, but the corp does not.

[Kopenhagen]

What Vince said.

And I understand it well Ava. It has arisen to a lesser degree with Jude. When people assume they know why he has fought for both the Minmatar and the Caldari, but never actually bothering to ask him for his reasons. The same goes for running a bar where everyone is welcome and for being a neutral merc. He has extensive IC reasoning behind all this, but he does not feel like making it public. And I don't want to let the cat out of the bag IC.

Basically, when he meets someone who have decided for themselves what his motives or reasoning are, he does not try and change their mind. He simply thinks less of them and moves on.

I would like to ask the questions.

If a Minmatar joins CONCORD, are they less Matari?
If a Gallente decides to fight the Sansha, instead of the Caldari, and thus fight on a different front, are they less less Gallente?
If a Caldari tries to stop Goons invading Jita, instead of fighting the Gallente, are they less Caldari?

I can go on, but I think the idea comes across.

The Sebiestor are supposed to be the most innovative, that makes me think that thinking outside of the box and trying to find new answers to old questions fit very well into racial profiling.

Ava and I have spoken about why her move makes sense IC.

Mmm, I wanted to say much, much more, but because it can be taken as critique of someone's IC character, I will rather leave that for IC.