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[Seriphyn]

Split from tangent on Tibus Heth's downfall

I think I'm going with Kunarian here. The "America has megacorporations, so do the Caldari! Therefore they are similar". That's a selection bias that ignores the biggest fundamentals of both the US and the Caldari.

I really didn't think it needed explanation it in detail, but looking at the basics of the two polities, they really are worlds apart.

The United States was founded on the principles of the Enlightenment and classical liberalism

The Caldari State was founded to protect the rights of the megacorporations (and the Caldari people as a community they would assert) from non-Caldari forces. It's constantly repeated that the Caldari find the ideas of individualism completely antithesis to their world view, seeing it as selfish and egoistic. There is no John Locke or Benjamin Franklin in Caldari history, and there is certainly no espousing of Enlightenment principles.

The United States has a central legal document that takes precedence over all other institutions, with a central judiciary to enforce this

The only thing that binds the Caldari State together as an entity are laws BETWEEN the constituent parts, not in SUPREMACY OF. The Caldari Business Tribunal is explicitly stated to NOT be a supreme court, specifically outlined that its main purpose is to resolve disagreements, not enforce any central laws. That is significantly detached from the role of republican Supreme Courts.

The United States provides rights of the individual against the local authorities

Building on the previous, if an individual has an issue with their state government, they can go to the Federal government to seek a solution. If an individual Caldari has an issue against their megacorporation, then there is no higher authority they can approach. The CBT is not a supreme court, again.

The United States central government passes laws independently of its constituent governments

The CEP is made up of appointed representatives from the megacorporations, and therefore could only legislate with the express approval of those megas. In contrast, the US central govt is elected by the people and not appointed by the state governments. That means representatives of Texas could vote however they want independent of what the Texan government wants. This is not like the CEP.

The United States is a federation

And the Caldari State is not, as it is a confederation where the central government cannot act independently of its parts. Merely an assertion of the previous points.

The United States is democratic

And the Caldari State is not. It doesn't matter about all the accusations of special interests, the influence of the 1%, etc. etc. Speaking at the fundamental constitutional level, every citizen of age can vote. That makes it democratic regardless of the quirks that have come about over time. You can vote in the Caldari State, sure, if you can afford to buy a share of a megacorporation that is probably valued in the tens of trillions of ISK...and then again you'll be outvoted by someone who has 100 shares, and then again they'll be outvoted by someone who inherits their 1000 shares. That all has legal basis.

Now swap out the Gallente Federation with the United States above. You can easily swap out the United States with the European Union, too. The Caldari State does not have a Supreme Court, it does not have a Legislature voted in by the people independently of the constituent governments. It no longer has a Head of State that is put into office independently of its constituent governments. The Caldari State does not have a constitution that espouses individual freedoms and classical liberalism. The Caldari State has a completely different political and legal system to the United States, to the point that it far removes the social and cultural order from one another.

I think the point is made, anyway. But the argument "The Caldari State is entirely privatized*, and so is a large portion of the US!" doesn't sit with me. Britain is becoming increasingly privatized, but I don't think anyone would compare the Caldari with the British.

*I don't think this is even a concept to the Caldari, because the term 'privatized' infers there is something in opposite to it.

In the end though, there's enough details about the Caldari that poor comparisons to RL is no longer needed. Especially that there is no political analogue (plenty of cultural analogues, though, of which American culture would not be)

[Vic Van Meter]

I'd say, if anything, the Caldari State is an analogue to China.  They're an overbearing state with a giant corporate culture that attempts to make belief into the state a replacement for religion and multiculturalism.  Having read the lore and hearing the way people here play them, I thought they were pretty much a distinct riff on Communist China, maybe on Communism as a whole.

[Kunarian]

I'd say, if anything, the Caldari State is an analogue to China.  They're an overbearing state with a giant corporate culture that attempts to make belief into the state a replacement for religion and multiculturalism.  Having read the lore and hearing the way people here play them, I thought they were pretty much a distinct riff on Communist China, maybe on Communism as a whole.

Problem with that picture is that the Caldari megas are the state wheras in China the state creates the chinese corporations. Additionally there are some points Seriphyn made which you could apply to china in comparison to the caldari. Although China is more culturally similar to the Caldari than the US, just like Japan is more culturally similar.

To be honest I think the analogue is better than the US one but still both are far off.

[Silas Vitalia]

I thought a lot of the original Caldari flavorings were based off of 1980's corporate Japan in structure and 'tone'?

The extreme corporate loyalty of employees, working for one corp for life, that kind of thing.

[Kunarian]

I thought a lot of the original Caldari flavorings were based off of 1980's corporate Japan in structure and 'tone'?

The extreme corporate loyalty of employees, working for one corp for life, that kind of thing.

Yes, this^^

[orange]

My responses are examples from the historical United States and largely pre-Civil War.  In some cases they are pre-1789, when the US Constitution was accepted by the States.

The United States has a central legal document that takes precedence over all other institutions, with a central judiciary to enforce this

The only thing that binds the Caldari State together as an entity are laws BETWEEN the constituent parts, not in SUPREMACY OF. The Caldari Business Tribunal is explicitly stated to NOT be a supreme court, specifically outlined that its main purpose is to resolve disagreements, not enforce any central laws. That is significantly detached from the role of republican Supreme Courts.

Except that is one of the things the US Supreme Court system actually rules on.  It rules on disagreements over the Constitutionality of other laws.  The State of Arizona vs the United States is likely the most recent example of disagreement between a State and the Federal government being adjudicated in the US Supreme Court.  It also rules in disagreements between States or citizens of different States.

Controversies between two or more States;—between a State and Citizens of another State;—between Citizens of different States;—between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.

The United States provides rights of the individual against the local authorities

Building on the previous, if an individual has an issue with their state government, they can go to the Federal government to seek a solution. If an individual Caldari has an issue against their megacorporation, then there is no higher authority they can approach. The CBT is not a supreme court, again.

This was however not always true.  Until after the Civil War, unless it was expressly forbidden in the Constitution, the States had the right to do what they want. 

The United States central government passes laws independently of its constituent governments

The CEP is made up of appointed representatives from the megacorporations, and therefore could only legislate with the express approval of those megas. In contrast, the US central govt is elected by the people and not appointed by the state governments. That means representatives of Texas could vote however they want independent of what the Texan government wants. This is not like the CEP.

Except that the original intent of the Senate was just that - to provide the States a voice separate from the democratically elected House.  Originally, Senators were not voted into office by the people, but by their respective state legislators.

The United States is a federation

And the Caldari State is not, as it is a confederation where the central government cannot act independently of its parts. Merely an assertion of the previous points.

From 1776 to 1789, the US was a confederation of States.  Through 1865, it can be argued it was still more confederated than federated.

Put another way, it is possible to take examples from US history as examples upon which to base how a confederation of largely independent "states" may behave.

[Kunarian]

Honestly I'm a bit confused now, you've gone from trying to prove that the modern US is like the Caldari to trying to prove that the historical and pre-war US is like the Caldari with the aim of establishing what exactly?

At the moment the idea of trying to link the US to the Caldari seems to be argument for arguments sake.

[orange]

*orange is not Vikarion*

I have not, to my memory, actually argued that the modern United States and the fictional Caldari State are parallel entities in any particular thread.  I have in the past argued that parallels between the post-Revolution and pre-Civil War US and Caldari State exist (as I did above).

In the thread that spawned this thread, I disagreed with the assertion that there is more social mobility in the State than in the US.  I ceased arguing the topic here when I realized that I actually have a disagreement with how social mobility is measured by the experts.  Until I expend the energy to come up with a measure of social mobility which improves upon the system used today, it is not worth arguing here or elsewhere.*

*[spoiler]In reading through the studies used for social mobility, I found that a population is divided into quarters and generational mobility is measured as the population transitions from one quarter to the next between generations.

In any population, the majority (~70%) will be within one standard deviation of the median income.  For a largely equal society, there is a low standard deviation and thus the ability to move between social quarters is easier (requires a low magnitude change).  For an unequal society, the standard deviation is larger, and thus moving between social quarters is more difficult (requires a large magnitude change).  If two families experience the same income change, but in different societies, a family in the largely equal society may be counted as moving socially while the family in the less equal society will not be.

In a perfectly equal society, mobility will be infinite since using the metric of movement between quarters, anyone could be counted in any of the quarters.  However, no actual movement in social standing would occur.[/spoiler]

[Kunarian]

*orange is not Vikarion*

Forgive me, heat of the moment and myself not thinking.

[Vic Van Meter]

I thought a lot of the original Caldari flavorings were based off of 1980's corporate Japan in structure and 'tone'?

The extreme corporate loyalty of employees, working for one corp for life, that kind of thing.

Honestly, Japanese culture is way too colorful and diverse for Caldari culture.  Japanese people tend to be loyal for loyalty's sake.  Caldari culture as I understand it is big, megalithic, authoritarian, and homogeneous.  Japan has a lot of internal diversity kind of fused with one ethnic identity.  If there's one thing I've gotten from reading the lore and the way the lore is interpreted, it's almost certainly a riff on Communism, with its overarching emphasis on unity, enforced loyalty to the State, and suspicion of diversity.  The only difference seems to be that Caldari corporations ARE the state, whereas Communist states tend to own or be majority shareholders in their corporations.

They're really drilling that Communist button, so I essentially figured that CCP is taking their cues for the Caldari from the Chinese grab bag, they're just doing it from a corporate angle.  Sort of the way that the Amarrian Empire is almost certainly a riff on old-school European feudalism, right down to their issue of foreign conquest and religious unity, you just have to pull back the Roman veneer they use to give it cohesion to get there.

[Makoto Priano]

I'd tend to agree that the Caldari State doesn't resemble the United States, on the ground. While the US = Gallente Federation comparison is also problematic, the fetishization of individual rights (loaded, but seriously here) would be more likely to tie into the Federation than the State. It may simply be that RPers tend to stress individualistic competition over the communal tendencies constantly referred to in PF.

My view would tend to be that the monolithic Caldari culture may be best compared with pre-WW2 Japanese culture, which was essentially expansionist, Confucian, but with Western trappings. This will also lend itself to Confucian class-awareness and taboo, and the paternalism that a strongly communal and hierarchic society should possess.

[orange]

At the end of the day, we as consumers are going to draw parallels to historical models we are most comfortable with in terms of attempting to understand the fiction we are consuming.

In some cases, there may be a clear template upon which the author built a fictional entity.   In other cases, where there are mash-ups of various cultures and story arcs, the template is less clear.

As for the Caldari, when I started caring about background, the perception I had was one very much of a cyberpunk corporate confederation, ala Shadowrun.  To me, this means a mash-up/magnification of west coast US & Japanese cultures (which in some ways exists).

Today, I don't know, I have not kept up with the changes to the background sufficiently to have a well founded opinion.

[Elmund Egivand]

At the end of the day, we as consumers are going to draw parallels to historical models we are most comfortable with in terms of attempting to understand the fiction we are consuming.

In some cases, there may be a clear template upon which the author built a fictional entity.   In other cases, where there are mash-ups of various cultures and story arcs, the template is less clear.

As for the Caldari, when I started caring about background, the perception I had was one very much of a cyberpunk corporate confederation, ala Shadowrun.  To me, this means a mash-up/magnification of west coast US & Japanese cultures (which in some ways exists).

Today, I don't know, I have not kept up with the changes to the background sufficiently to have a well founded opinion.

I always felt the Caldari is similar to the Japanese Zaibatsu mixed with the Germanic/Swiss academic system plus East India Company business model (Colonies! More colonies!).

[Vincent Pryce]

I don't know particularly well what kind of kool-aid current CCP writers are drinking, but when the original writers wrote Caldari State it was an intermix of Finnish and Japanese culture, and the internet folk seem to be hung up on the japanese side of things. Rarely do folks actually look at what things the Finnish side brings to the mix or has brought when this actually was a thing, besides a naming template ofc.

The isolationist nature of Caldari comes more from Finnish culture than Japanese, same with the gruffness of doing what your job is nevermind how shit that job might be. The essence of an old Finnish proverb lives in strong in the Caldari culture "Shitty trip, but at least it got made." Unfortunately it doesn't translate too well.

Caldari State has very little to do with the US in my eyes other than being hypercapitalistic shithole where rich get richer and the rest fight for scraps. Though TonyG did his best to write the Caldari State as Hitler's America. Thankfully that shit is being swept under the carpet.

Anyhow, food for thought.

[Arista Shahni]

The only silly comparison of Caldari = US is:

1) Megacaorps are entities like people and can be protected with rights reserved for living people.

2)



Don't put more thought into it than that.  It'll hurt your head.  It's basically someone played Cyberpunk 2020 too long.