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[Ollie]

My simple rule of thumb when dealing with the grey areas that Esna brought up is to open an OOC chat with the other player, check if they want to RP something out and then negotiate some basic guidelines for both of us to work with. Usually that involves giving something "back" for every term that is advantageous to me.

Doesn't always work out perfectly but at least I've got a yard stick to measure rising derp against (when it happens) and make a decision on when to bail out.

[Gesakaarin]

Most days I'd take some old-school Jericho Fraction/Star Fraction/Stimulus trying to push my organization's shit in because while I would say they at times did "God-mod" to "Win" at least the majority of the time their RP was self-contained within itself and premised upon what actually happened in space.

These days it's like all I see is people using the excuse of "Worldbuilding" to either go on Quixotic adventures or conduct look-how-big-my-e-peen-is-because-I-wrote-about-it exercises while spinning ships in stations and being the proud owner of a one man corp of alts.

Damn, I might as well just write my character is the Empress of Saisio and has a harem of Achuran handmaidens while she looks upon all that she owns from the high-tower of her pony sandcastle. I wrote about it. It must be true. Which really doesn't seem too far from most of the RP I see these days.

[Lyn Farel]

These days I don't have the will to play a game I stopped finding fun a long time ago. I stayed for RP, but every time I read that it renders my whole RP somehow "wrong" since it does not involve anything else in space anymore, what does it leaves me ? Bar RP ? Hugglefest RP ?

How is that so annoying that someone contributes to make the universe richer ? If you want to have conflict with these people that "worldbuild", then do it. I am sure they are ready to take into account your actions like Silas did with Aldy when he slaughtered her lieutenants, or like Merdaneth expected when he orphanaged the Republic on the warzone, and if they are not, screw it and call them godmodders. And if that's just not your kind of things, as long as they do not start to godmod the whole universe and actually affect you, what's the problem ? Leave them alone.

Since we do not have news anymore, apparently killed live events once again, is that the best approach to also kill all the world building efforts that actually try to compensate for that ? As long as they remain modest and "local" (vs global and universal facts), is that still okay to do any background for characters at all, since it's exactly the same thing ? Are we back to that debate again ? It's a fine one to have of course, but I thought we were past that...

I also find that remark rather disenchanting since people are perfectly fine with universal things like Napanii that actually godmod a lot more than mere world builders in their little pony castles and ivory towers.

[Gesakaarin]

I might clarify Lyn in that I believe there is a fundamental difference with writing fictional background, making potential assertions on that background or just plain old making things up -- so long as there is at least some options to work with it, or even ignore it. I've rp'ed things that even I consider might be in grey areas regarding the PF in order to make things a bit richer for me and the people I play with, but as much as possible I've at least tried to contain it or keep it private by not disclosing it beyond the people or characters it was used by.

That to me is a fundamental difference, because a lot of the "worldbuilding" I'm seeing at present isn't some cultural artifact that could be considered optional like Napanii (And honestly I've had my own issues with that assertion that it's the -actual- language of the State and not a dialect etc., that can be ignored if needed or wanted by character or player) but rather it's seeking to present some sort of unverified or unsubstantiated fictional assertions with the sole purpose to as far as I can see to get some sort of one-way acknowledgement or validation from the player/characters making them.

If worldbuilding is just going to be an excuse to make claims about how someone controls entire planets and populations; are able to convert thousands/hundreds of thousands/millions of people to their causes; or generally just anything else with the express intent (as far as I see it) to just write in for their characters how powerful, awesome, and influential their own characters are (even when, for example they're just in a one man corp.) then where does it end?

We might as well just be playing Generic Fantasy MMO RP or something where you have:

Sir Lord Duke Earl Cardinal Pope High Marshall of the Grand Army of Light, Beefchest Ironabs, Slayer of All Things: "And then I killed almost a hundred thousand orcs, with my bare hands, naked, just by the sheer power of my Ironabs and pure masculinity. As the blood flowed upon the ground it attracted a Dracolich that I slew with the raw power of my testosterone fuelled Beefchest!"

Other guy with More Titles In the Name: "Oh yeah? Well I basically did the same thing, except I was having a threesome with the Queen and the Princess while doing it!"

Using that example, it's a lot different to me if they're doing it in private than opposed to being in the public domain. And that to me is what appears to be a lot of the "worldbuilding" or "character-building" in Eve which seems nothing more than people trying to write how big their e-peen. Is RP in Eve now just a creative writing exercise about how super-awesome our characters are while we spin ships in a station?

If people kept their pursuits to RP about their own awesome private and out of the public domain, I could honestly care less about what they write about their own space adventures irrespective of how ridiculous I may or may not find it. But a lot of it isn't, and when it starts getting flopped out in public and in my face I'm left with the question, "Oh wow, great. So what now, am I meant to stroke it just for your own self-gratification?"

[Lyn Farel]

How do you ignore a language (napanii) that is used by half or even more Caldari RPers, that is thrown at your face every time you connect on any channel ? I would have absolutely no issue with it if it was just a local dialect.

Anyway, I have yet to see those supposed Sir Lord Duke Earl Cardinal Pope High Marshall of the Grand Army of Light, Beefchest Ironabs, Slayer of All Things, except maybe for Vaari, for whom the purpose is definitely elsewhere. That is, in usual world building, of course.

In personal backgrounds and stories, that's something else and they are legion indeed, but welcome in general RPing on MMOs. So if you are refering to personal stories/background where X was a super soldier snowflake that killed a lot of people, then I agree. If you are talking about things like Elusenia or Mantenault, I respectfuly disagree, and even couldnt disagree more. I'm not a big fan of putting every kind of thing in the same basket.

Also, i'm getting fed up of that derogatory attitude which consists to point fingers at people that do not do things in space so whatever they say, do or else, is somehow irrelevant.

[Arista Shahni]

In regards to Napaani, I do ignore it mostly, because my internal implants should be translating everything to 'standard Amarrian' (or whatever they are set to), and therefore it comes out as gibberish.  The words I know in Napaani are a total of four because I had to ask for RP reasons and not knowing them had the chance of breaking the flow of a scene.  Why napaani is not translated I don't know and didn't read the background of.  I saw at one point Makkal wanted to add a few words of traditional Khanid somewhere -- a truly dead language in PF (but think of what happns to dead languages - they still have words used today with their "roots" described as dead) here in backstage posts and I can see it's reception was a bit .. angry.

So, as an example, that's how someone ignores Napaani.  I already had a doctorate thesis to read on the Amarr and the Khanid just to be able to say hello with a vauge grip of someone who knows what part of the cluster they come from. 

I'm personally neutral on the existence of a language that I do not speak and, again, my capsuleer implants for some reason do not translate - that one and every other one I've seen different people use.  Do it all you like, but I don't want to be expected to memorize them all to play.

[Gesakaarin]

Also, i'm getting fed up of that derogatory attitude which consists to point fingers at people that do not do things in space so whatever they say, do or else, is somehow irrelevant.

What I will say is that the fundamental aspect of god-modding in Eve to me is making an unverifiable claim or assertion that affects another character in any way without tacit consent. What happens in-game and the PF to me are the only justifiable, independent, arbitrary factors that should affect both a player and a character, and it is why I try as best as possible to keep my RP both within the game and in the PF.

It isn't a question to me as to whether or not anything written about the world outside the scope of what occurs functionally within the game or the PF is god-modding to me -- it is. The only thing that concerns me is the degree to which such player/non-canon arbitration affects others and the manner in which it is presented. If some player fiction is presented in a manner where the claims made can be ignored, opted-out, seen as a different perspective or if all else fails, at least be seen as detrimental by other players or characters then I think it's a non-issue. This is different if the claims being made can't. Using the example of Napanii, the claim that it is THE ONE AND ONLY Caldari language is arbitrary. The same with Heiian as being THE ONE AND ONLY system of Caldari honour is arbitrary. Both are/were non-PF and have not been reflected in the game world. Their only "legitimacy" is the scope of their usage. It doesn't change the fact they're unverifiable and that the degree of their arbitrary claims means if you don't subscribe/use them then you're arbitrarily said to not know how to speak Caldari or know an integral part of Caldari culture.

Small RP claims made in private, through mutual consent, differ greatly from large claims made in public where the demands become largely arbitrary upon everyone else. The questions I try to ask when I or other people write about affecting the world instead of actually affecting it in space and in-game are not whether or not it's god-modding, because I feel it is. Rather the points I try to consider are:

- Perception vs. Reality: The degree to which the claims made are seeking to imply objective truth that must be accepted versus subjective perception that permits a variety of means to interact with stated claims.

- Scope: The degree to which stated claims might be said to affect others. Claims that affect the world-at-large are different than claims which are said to only affect a character or organization.

- Denial/Opting-out/Ignoring: The degree to which a claim can be denied or opted-out by others while still remaining consistent with the world. The difference between presenting an opinion and stating something is hard fact -- especially important when claims have tenuous basis within PF.

- Consequence: If claims only provide positive consequences to the person making them, especially to the detriment of others, without providing potential negative consequences that might be detrimental to themselves then hello there Mary-Sue.

Consent/Arbitration: The only truly arbitrary things that should happen in Eve are what happens in the game and in space. Everything else implies a degree of consent when playing with others.

That's just a few points that come to mind for me, and I at least do try to practice what I preach. I mean, I won't deny that I feel I've god-modded at times in my RP because not all my RP is conducted in space. I have however tried to balance some of the above points in my mind in consideration towards other players/characters when deploying an arc or making claims. I might point out the Khanid shenanigans involving Pyre Falcon and POW's: I tried to balance perception vs. reality; set the scope to something small and realistic reflecting the size/goals/politics of the organization; provide some ways for people to opt-out of it or outright ignore it; I deliberately provided the means for negative consequence both functionally and by reputation; I sought to balance consent/arbitration with what a Caldari mercenary organization does in-game. I don't think I always succeed but I do at least try.

However I think I might have fundamental philosophical issues with other roleplayers like yourself in Eve. To me I play Eve solely as a political simulator between different capsuleer groups and organizations premised solely upon conflict and an economy of war. In fact, the longer I participate or engage with the "RP community" I actually end up feeling less immersed in the world of New Eden. This is because it ends up feeling like my character has to become some kind of delusional person living in a continuous state of cognitive dissonance in order to maintain some sort of alternate reality where what you actually do, what you actually have to fight to earn, gain and maintain is less important than what you tell others you do while you're docked in a station writing about how awesome and powerful you are.

[Vic Van Meter]

While I can see where you're coming from, I think the reasons the vast majority of RPers do come up with a lot of player-driven content rather than trying to stick to the script are twofold.  First, what CCP gives is intentionally vague.  EVElopedia at one point claims that the Theology Council is a vestige of its former self, the next it's an all powerful group that can define a heresy at a whim.  Sometimes they get to operate on their own, but it's obvious that the political establishment has the power to declare and refuse to declare hostilities on those grounds.  In fact, we have no idea how that process works in detail, so any argument we have on the relative power or lack of power regarding the Theology Council has to take place without even having a good bit of the Scripture, much less knowing exactly how the legal system works.  Where they do tend to get specific is in the sorts of UAD character direction, which as an RPer I've hated nearly since I started roleplaying.

Hence we have to kind of make it up as we go along.  Normally, that'd be a problem for me as well, but in space that's not exactly a problem or a crazy idea.  Capsuleers are a very small fraction of the people of the universe, so the rest of the universe is a huge place with a population most of us couldn't dream about.  Even if one of us managed to build an army of thousands or even a million, that's probably not even significant on a single planet, much less across the cluster.  Which is why I tend not to flip my lid when someone directly contradicts me.  Different parts of the Empire probably operate in very different ways, much less the whole of the cluster, so it's not necessarily a big deal when, for example, Anabella and Constantin go over poverty figures.  Anabella probably doesn't spend a lot of time hanging around impoverished areas and Constantin probably isn't going to be invited to the upstanding clubs in Matari space.  Their experiences will be a lot different.

It's all an attempt to make EVE's admittedly dry lore somewhat more interesting.  If you stick with the scant details we have, everyone becomes boringly similar, especially if as capsuleers all we ended up becoming are truckers, soldiers, and explorers.  The RP would be hard to stretch any kind of relationship with if we were all sticking to the UAD method.  We're inevitably going to represent state institutions or small cults of one kind or another and we're not going to have anywhere near the detail we'd need to have a lore hash about it.  It's a lot more interesting than intercorporate capsuleer politics, which I got bored of listening to in station local chat in about five minutes.  I had enough of high school when I was in high school.

RP in EVE is really interesting not because of the lore we have, but because the lack of it allows us to sort of hash it out.  When everyone is being polite and sincere about everything, which so far I've not seen otherwise, it works pretty well.  There's an explosion of stuff about the Amarr that seems all over the place, but it's all being ironed out without anyone usually pitching a fit about it.  Really, that's the essence of roleplaying:  everyone working together to tell a set of interesting stories.  I don't care if someone makes up an entire kingdom that no other PC actually lives in as long as their character is memorable and interesting.  Likewise, I'm not entirely impressed by someone who flies battleships for a huge PVP alliance if their character is injection-molded and boring.

Now, if our first example says his army swoops in and crushes the Khanid Kingdom, that crosses the line for me.  Capsuleers, for all their supposedly godlike power, are just a small percentage of the population and their influence should be relatively minute.  Constantin might convert thousands of people with his organization, and the cluster might not universally notice.  The whole point is that it gives something to react to without altering the game world.  That's why there are so many Amarrian theological posts at the top of the IGS right now.  People have something to talk about besides the ups and downs of the PVP game world.

It's been nothing if not entertaining.

[Lyn Farel]

What I will say is that the fundamental aspect of god-modding in Eve to me is making an unverifiable claim or assertion that affects another character in any way without tacit consent. What happens in-game and the PF to me are the only justifiable, independent, arbitrary factors that should affect both a player and a character, and it is why I try as best as possible to keep my RP both within the game and in the PF.

It isn't a question to me as to whether or not anything written about the world outside the scope of what occurs functionally within the game or the PF is god-modding to me -- it is. The only thing that concerns me is the degree to which such player/non-canon arbitration affects others and the manner in which it is presented. If some player fiction is presented in a manner where the claims made can be ignored, opted-out, seen as a different perspective or if all else fails, at least be seen as detrimental by other players or characters then I think it's a non-issue. This is different if the claims being made can't. Using the example of Napanii, the claim that it is THE ONE AND ONLY Caldari language is arbitrary. The same with Heiian as being THE ONE AND ONLY system of Caldari honour is arbitrary. Both are/were non-PF and have not been reflected in the game world. Their only "legitimacy" is the scope of their usage. It doesn't change the fact they're unverifiable and that the degree of their arbitrary claims means if you don't subscribe/use them then you're arbitrarily said to not know how to speak Caldari or know an integral part of Caldari culture.

Small RP claims made in private, through mutual consent, differ greatly from large claims made in public where the demands become largely arbitrary upon everyone else. The questions I try to ask when I or other people write about affecting the world instead of actually affecting it in space and in-game are not whether or not it's god-modding, because I feel it is. Rather the points I try to consider are:

- Perception vs. Reality: The degree to which the claims made are seeking to imply objective truth that must be accepted versus subjective perception that permits a variety of means to interact with stated claims.

- Scope: The degree to which stated claims might be said to affect others. Claims that affect the world-at-large are different than claims which are said to only affect a character or organization.

- Denial/Opting-out/Ignoring: The degree to which a claim can be denied or opted-out by others while still remaining consistent with the world. The difference between presenting an opinion and stating something is hard fact -- especially important when claims have tenuous basis within PF.

- Consequence: If claims only provide positive consequences to the person making them, especially to the detriment of others, without providing potential negative consequences that might be detrimental to themselves then hello there Mary-Sue.

Consent/Arbitration: The only truly arbitrary things that should happen in Eve are what happens in the game and in space. Everything else implies a degree of consent when playing with others.

That's just a few points that come to mind for me, and I at least do try to practice what I preach. I mean, I won't deny that I feel I've god-modded at times in my RP because not all my RP is conducted in space. I have however tried to balance some of the above points in my mind in consideration towards other players/characters when deploying an arc or making claims. I might point out the Khanid shenanigans involving Pyre Falcon and POW's: I tried to balance perception vs. reality; set the scope to something small and realistic reflecting the size/goals/politics of the organization; provide some ways for people to opt-out of it or outright ignore it; I deliberately provided the means for negative consequence both functionally and by reputation; I sought to balance consent/arbitration with what a Caldari mercenary organization does in-game. I don't think I always succeed but I do at least try.

Yes, I mostly agree with that and try to take it the same way most of the time. I am a hardline partisan of what is written in PF is the sole rule, and what has been invented by other players is perfectly fine as long as it does not even try to godmod into me and my RP territory.

The only difference may lie in the scale/scope where I draw the line. It's not godmodding to me if someone invents stuff about his little town or country somewhere. It starts to be godmodding as the scale increases, like telling you are the son of Heth, or that your language is de facto the language of the whole faction, etc.

I can understand that creating something, even insignificant and harmless to everyone, can be somehow godmodding in the sense that you still try to invent something in their world, but as you said it can be perfectly ignored whatsoever. vOv

However I think I might have fundamental philosophical issues with other roleplayers like yourself in Eve. To me I play Eve solely as a political simulator between different capsuleer groups and organizations premised solely upon conflict and an economy of war. In fact, the longer I participate or engage with the "RP community" I actually end up feeling less immersed in the world of New Eden. This is because it ends up feeling like my character has to become some kind of delusional person living in a continuous state of cognitive dissonance in order to maintain some sort of alternate reality where what you actually do, what you actually have to fight to earn, gain and maintain is less important than what you tell others you do while you're docked in a station writing about how awesome and powerful you are.

I started playing Eve like that since I didn't know how to RP in a more complete/immersive manner in that game, like I did on other games. Spent like 2-3 years doing exclusively that, what I usually call "entity RP", as opposed to "character RP". Entity RP consists mainly in doing your stuff in Eve in much the same fashion that the average player, but with a RP flavor that actually dictates what you do and your corp/character policies, in accordance with the universe and the lore. As soon as you start making claims with the character, you start to slip towards the character RP, which is basically fleshing out your character and making him or her actually live and breath and stuff happen to him/her rather than just your political RP / Entity RP beforehand. Then, RPing in channels or even world building or writing your bio or whatever, is character RP.

What annoys me the most is that the more I play, the more I see the capsuleer combat/struggles meaningless in the greater tapestry of New Eden, and same goes for my character. Thus, the more and more important is stuff that actually is tied to the universe, not to the gameplay because to be perfectly honest, what capsuleers do in Eve is bland and not interesting to me. I don't care who controls Fountain and what Goon do and how they betrayed Bob. I care about what CCP has presented us since the beginning, the universe, the lore, the PF, and also the news, not the usual meaningless stuff happening in FW or whatever.

So yes, not a surprise that I care more and more about the world and less and less about the game itself, since CCP has rarely done anything to actually include us into their world. Even in events, we are only consumers and not actors. And Capsuleers always live on the fringe and always will, if only by their sole marginal/demigod status.

[Ollie]

Ges, to take your definitions a little further into the hypothetical:

Player A is speaking in the Summit - a public RP venue - using Napanni phrases (player invented language) interspersed with English (EVE cluster 'common' language understood by all through PF supported translator technology).

Player B responds by saying that because they can't understand the Napanni phrases, there must be something wrong with either the translator tech or there is a possibility that Player A is murdering his/her 'own language'.

Player B is probably being a bit of a dick in sparking the almost inevitable argument that follows but - under your definitions - are they god-modding (they're sticking rigidly with PF after all) or is Player A (by using player created lore and ignoring the PF/in game mechanics)?

[Arista Shahni]

Ges, to take your definitions a little further into the hypothetical:

Player A is speaking in the Summit - a public RP venue - using Napanni phrases (player invented language) interspersed with English (EVE cluster 'common' language understood by all through PF supported translator technology).

Player B responds by saying that because they can't understand the Napanni phrases, there must be something wrong with either the translator tech or there is a possibility that Player A is murdering his/her 'own language'.

Player B is probably being a bit of a dick in sparking the almost inevitable argument that follows but - under your definitions - are they god-modding (they're sticking rigidly with PF after all) or is Player A (by using player created lore and ignoring the PF/in game mechanics)?

Wow, then I'm a dick.  Wee!

There have been several cases in which I've said, "I'm sorry, my translator didn't catch that word, can you explain it?"

Soooo wat do I do to not be a Dick? Dig through something that.. is it even IN EVE's wiki?

Where IS Napaani?  What forum is it buried in?

... and memorize Napaani to make up for my in game translator that should be working...

or.. post in the OOC tab, which may not be even noticed by the person using the napaani phrase for 25 minutes -- completely disrupting the shared RP flow in because I can not respond to a sentence I can't understand... 

or.... ask them what they mean ICly saying that my translator didn't catch it, giving the player who spent the time and effort to learn the language a chance to explain it and teach it to a non-Caldari Capsuleer? 

I've NEVER had an issue where me asking what a Napaani word mean lead to a shit slinging contest.  Ever.  In fact, every Caldari I've had to ask was happy to teach me, and at times, the discussions on napaani word definitions have only added depth to an RP scene. 

Have you seen it turn out differently?

Cause this ain't hypothetical. It happens, and not just me, a LOT of Capsuleers have asked the meanings of Napaani words in public.

[Vic Van Meter]

On that note, what language are we speaking in EVE?  Maybe I'm missing it, but I couldn't find it.  It's definitely not from any of the other cultures, since everyone does seem to know those languages as second languages.  What language exactly do we speak and where did it come from?  Is the common language recent and does everyone in the cluster speak it or are most baseliners still speaking their regional languages?

Sorry, I just couldn't find an article on it and figured someone might know where it is.

[Gabriel Darkefyre]

The Short Answer is, every Capsuleer talks in their own Language, there is no Universal Language in EVE.

However, the Capsule has a Translator Module which is supposed to automatically convert all incoming Transmissions to the Language of the Capsuleer. So, a Caldari could be speaking fluent Napanni, but a Gallente Capsuleer will hear it as Pure Gallentean.

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Language_Translators_(Chronicle)

[Lyn Farel]

There is no standard language. Everyone speaks his own, which is almost perfectly translated by universal translators. Saying that one's language is so obscure and not recognized by a translator is even rather close to godmodding itself, making it special enough to escape what PF states on the matter.

https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Language_Translators_(Chronicle)

Edit : got beaten.

[Esna Pitoojee]

My simple rule of thumb when dealing with the grey areas that Esna brought up is to open an OOC chat with the other player, check if they want to RP something out and then negotiate some basic guidelines for both of us to work with. Usually that involves giving something "back" for every term that is advantageous to me.

Doesn't always work out perfectly but at least I've got a yard stick to measure rising derp against (when it happens) and make a decision on when to bail out.

Just sticking my head in to report that this is my general tactic, and for the most part it's worked out. Going back to the ship crews thing again, I've asked to be allowed to do things with peoples' crews a few times and I've always been told 'yeah, that's cool. Thanks for asking, go ahead.'

Then again, I've also had situations where people got me involved in stuff, then went NOPE NOPE NOPE.