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[Silas Vitalia]

Backstage is not my site so I go with the rules here or I'm removed, pretty straight forward. 

The math is that the benefits of posting and interacting with people here for me outweigh making a hill to die for over censorship or any other rule issues. 


Were this conversation happening not on backstage it would have a very different tone and language usage, I think that much is obvious.

I'm confused though is your issue with how people are being 'treated' on backstage or in the game?

 

[Havohej]

P.S.: Havohej, as far as I can discern you admitted fault in not closing the thread for being a flamebait so far, not though that you have been at fault in your posted reaction to it. As far as I saw your posts it seemed to me that you were firmly on the 'Seriphyn deserved it." side, going as far as to imply that it's really be him who's the 'source' of all those shaming posts.

To my way of thinking, since I went with Option B:) Shitpoast in thread, instead of Option A:) Moderate thread, admitting that I should have gone with option A:) is the same as saying, "I was wrong for taking Option B:)."

Yes, I am firmly on the 'Seriphyn deserved it' side, and can say so without flaming him or anyone else.  It's an opinion.  I can express it.  I can do so within the rules.  Fortunately, I'm not the only mod on this board, or I very likely would've banned him in 2010 for stuff done back then.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

My issue is really with the weird idea that 'the community' is somehow past criticism or the need of self-assessment.

That does include Backstage and here it is clear that there are in fact a couple of things coming up time and again (as I already pointed out) that show that 'the community' isn't always balanced in it's approach and isn't free of derp itself. Honestly, I think the same is true of the community in game.

To me the idea that 'the community' never has to assess  and reassess it's own behaviour amounts in my eyes to denying the reality that groups of people, too, are fallible.

The other issue I have is how 'the community was at his throat, so he deserved it' is used as a justification of and excuse for rule breaking behaviour, that can be seen here on Backstage again and again.

Well, sure Havohej, it implies that taking option B was wrong - but only insofar as you should have taken option A, not in sofar as option B being wrong even if you had no obligation to take option A.

[Shiori]

Two events during the whole debacle stood out, in my perception:

1. Havohej and Morwen fanning the flames with a highly personal and inflammatory attack against Seriphyn, then refusing to further moderate the thread because of a claimed "conflict of interest." I respect the right of moderators to have an opinion of their own, but is it really too much to ask that if something is, in their opinion, bullshit flamebait, that they moderate it instead of personally fanning the flames?

2. Morwen's defense of this by implying Seriphyn deserved his roasting, because of some kind of despicable acts he has committed, but which Morwen can't disclose because of privacy rules. I don't see how any personal failings of Seriphyn excuse misbehaviour in others. I don't see how the privacy rules are especially fair or effective if they allow this kind of "wink, wink, nudge nudge, can't tell you what he's done or to who but it's pretty horrible" kind of behaviour.

I guess it's a general plea for consistency. If Seriphyn is enough of a dick to actually deserve the kind of bullshit that's been heaped on him over the last couple of days, I must ask why he hasn't been simply moderated away or banned to begin with.

Simply put, this is inconsistent bullshit that erodes my trust in the moderation team.

[Silas Vitalia]

My issue is really with the weird idea that 'the community' is somehow past criticism or the need of self-assessment.

That does include Backstage and here it is clear that there are in fact a couple of things coming up time and again (as I already pointed out) that show that 'the community' isn't always balanced in it's approach and isn't free of derp itself. Honestly, I think the same is true of the community in game.

To me the idea that 'the community' never has to assess  and reassess it's own behaviour amounts in my eyes to denying the reality that groups of people, too, are fallible.

The other issue I have is how 'the community was at his throat, so he deserved it' is used as a justification of and excuse for rule breaking behaviour, that can be seen here on Backstage again and again.

Well, sure Havohej, it implies that taking option B was wrong - but only insofar as you should have taken option A, not in sofar as option B being wrong even if you had no obligation to take option A.

I think some of you get into hyperbolic exaggerations when you all use terms like 'at his throat' and 'heaps of bullshit' when specifically talking about Seriphyn. 

If you make many threads about yourself talking about yourself and inviting comments about yourself and "the community," you absolutely better be ready to receive criticism of a pointed nature and it will not likely be pretty. 

If Morwen or Havo started a thread about Seriphyn and then launched into their tirades then that is another story.

Seriphyn started threads about himself, asking opinions about himself, then he should have a reasonable expectation of what will follow. 

[Havohej]

Two events during the whole debacle stood out, in my perception:

1. Havohej and Morwen fanning the flames with a highly personal and inflammatory attack against Seriphyn

I've seen my post called an attack several times.  If a poster comes and asks for criticism and advice and receives these in an impolite fashion from someone who doesn't like that poster and has seen the same poster ask for the same feedback and ignore it for years while continuing the IC and OOC behaviours that have led to them having a large number of people dislike them IC and OOC, this is not an 'attack'.  It's criticism and advice delivered impolitely.  It can be called flaming, sure.  Shitpoasting, definitely.  An 'attack'?  That's a stretch.  If you were to read the post I made, you'll see that behind the profanity and open contempt was advice just as sound as what others gave - indeed, oft-repeated by others, Anslol for example.  As Silas pointed out, I gave too many fucks and let it get the best of me there.

2. Morwen's defense of this by implying Seriphyn deserved his roasting, because of some kind of despicable acts he has committed, but which Morwen can't disclose because of privacy rules. I don't see how any personal failings of Seriphyn excuse misbehaviour in others. I don't see how the privacy rules are especially fair or effective if they allow this kind of "wink, wink, nudge nudge, can't tell you what he's done or to who but it's pretty horrible" kind of behaviour.

You don't know the failing in question.  Yes, it's a weak statement to make.  I'm sure we all see how you could see it as a "wink, wink, nudge, nudge," and that's both unfortunate and frustrating.  But if you think your trust is eroded now, wait til you see what'd happen to it (and everyone else's, most likely) if MorLag didn't stick to his decision on that point and ignored the rules on privacy.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

I think some of you get into hyperbolic exaggerations when you all use terms like 'at his throat' and 'heaps of bullshit' when specifically talking about Seriphyn. 

If you make many threads about yourself talking about yourself and inviting comments about yourself and "the community," you absolutely better be ready to receive criticism of a pointed nature and it will not likely be pretty. 

If Morwen or Havo started a thread about Seriphyn and then launched into their tirades then that is another story.

Seriphyn started threads about himself, asking opinions about himself, then he should have a reasonable expectation of what will follow.

So, you say if I start a post then asking for opinions about myself, or maybe two or three, you'd be perfectly entitled to give that your opinion about me in a way that breaks the rules? I think that even in that case I can expect the responses to stay within the rules, really.

I think it is quite reasonable to expect the responses to stay within the bound of the rules, Silas.

Also, I think, Havohej, that Shiori means Morwen should have said nothing at all on that matter. The bit she said was already a breach of privacy in a way, namely Seriphyns.

[Silver Night]

The privacy being protected isn't Seriphyn's, in this case. It may have been better had Morwen not said anything, but there isn't a rule against referring in general to there being something, as opposed to specifically describing the content of a private conversation - and I think in this case Morwen felt the importance of people knowing that this wasn't solely composed of what was happening on the surface outweighed the awkwardness of 'something happened but I can't tell you exactly what'.

[mod]All that being said, if we could steer the thread a little more on topic, that would be good. Please take this as a gentle nudge, in spite of the scary mod box.[/mod]

[Morwen Lagann]

Point of order, nowhere did I suggest that anything he did was a reason for people to break the rules. It would be nice if people would learn to read and stop putting words in my mouth when they're right there to be seen.

Sometimes this forum's rules protecting privacy of users in addition to the usual social standards are extremely frustrating. There is more going on than the case of someone making an unlikable character and then repeatedly complaining that nobody wants to RP with them to the point nobody wants to listen to it anymore, but only a handful of people can actually come out and spill the details without breaking the rules.

tl;dr: There is more going on than meets the eye. Whether the details in question are from stuff in EVE, this forum, or another service is irrelevant. It would be bad form to spill the details on this forum at best, and against the rules at worst (such as, for example, if it involved records from the admin/mod area of the forum, or PMs exchanged between members here - EVEmails are kinda a grey area and subject to discretion of the mod team, afaik). And as Silver posted while I was putting this together, yes, what he said. Seriphyn-c being a womanizer isn't enough to merit that level of anger and hostility - I was stating for the record that it is far more than that behind it.

The funny thing, of course, is that I never said where the issues were happening, on this forum or elsewhere. Really goes to show how far people will throw their assumptions.

IC, I don't really have any reason to interact with Seriphyn except as necessary. While there might've been murderous intent at one point, these days it's basically, you exist, I can't do anything about it, move along.

OOC, far as I know we get on fine these days. Doesn't mean I listen patiently to every complaint he makes, or refrain from telling him he's full of shit or whatever when I think he's being full of shit, but I'm not being outright hostile.

Pretty simple: IC my characters have no reason nor desire to interact with Seriphyn based on several years of RP. OOC, we talk semi-regularly, and I don't have any reason to sugarcoat my responses to anything he says; nor does he expect me to.

That said, he's done some shit that makes me, and a number of other people, quite angry, and with good reason. Shit beyond what's been posted in this thread and the previous two, but as I stated at the beginning of the post, can't be discussed openly here without breaking privacy rules even though much of it happened in EVE and not here.

People who are angry at Seriphyn and venting vitriol at him are perfectly justified in feeling that way. It does not excuse their actions on this forum, as I said here:

What I'm saying is that no, in fact, it is not absurd or unwarranted. What it is, is inappropriate for posting on Backstage.

I very, very clearly stated that the amount of vitriol and hostility directed at Seriphyn is warranted and justified, and that expressing it in a manner that is inappropriate for Backstage is not.

If you people have questions about the meaning of my words, ask instead of trying to take them apart, re-jigger them around and shove them back in my mouth.

[Shiori]

Fair points above, all. Although I would still be happier if they did not need to be made in the first place. For what it's worth, I'm not calling for heads on platters, but rather the opposite - for heads to be more firmly attached to people's shoulders.

My own included! So, I'll consider my worries sufficiently aired and let the topic rest.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

In case it came off the wrong way, I personally thik that we are largely in agreement, Morwen. On whether Seri deserves the ire or not I simply can't know what is the case as I'm not priviledge to the information to make that judgement - and that's the only point where I think we differ.

I also see that Seriphyn's privacy wasn't the one to be protected, here.

[Anabella Rella]

All sides have had time to consider their actions, have acknowledged culpability as appropriate and there's been quite enough back and forth now that each side has had ample opportunity to express their points and counterpoints. In other words, I think we've beaten this subject to death. Is it possible to try to move forward, to agree to disagree in some cases and treat each other with at least a quantum of respect? To behave ourselves and try to enjoy this forum for the reason it was created?

Honestly anything further is just egoism and wanting to get in the "last word", in my opinion.

[Lyn Farel]

I'm just afraid that Seri left. Anyone heard from him ?

[Louella Dougans]

I'm just afraid that Seri left. Anyone heard from him ?

He's probably just busy with Rome total war II and stuff

[Seriphyn]

Holy crap, 7 pages.

Damnit.

I backed out for a while with the intention to come back with a clear head and a little refreshment. Someone bothered me on Steam saying people was wondering where I was, so I said I'll post on here saying I'll respond when my head is just a little bit more clearer. However, I did not expect this to hit 7 pages, or rather, I really wasn't thinking about it.

Nonetheless, I committed to it so I will post another when I have a bi

I then just scrolled down a little bit into Topic Summary to see Anabella's post about this topic being done, so fail on my part for leaving it like this. I'm not going to read the forums again for a while, so evegate/PM me any thoughts if anyone did want a follow-up, or simply do not send me anything and I'll get the idea this should be dropped.

Maybe I'll vlog something different, like about the lore rather than community politics, because I like the lore.