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[Silas Vitalia]

There are precious few of you who are anywhere near capable of "'giving 0 fucks" regarding other people and their opinions of you and your characters, and this is not a workable strategy for most people finding themselves with difficult community relations.  \

The need for social approval and validation from others runs too strong in most of us.


Anyway I think the community as a whole is generally very good about self-policing and squashing excessive derp all by itself.  These things generally work themselves out.  People are given plenty of chances to figure it out and 'the community' has limited patience.


Oh, I'll add that in my opinion, nearly ALL drama surrounding difficult players is self-inflicted. 100% believe this.

[Anslol]

So the choice of reaction by the individuals who perceive the action that causes 'drama' aren't at fault for over reacting or misinterpreting the situation and reacting in a manner not really matching the 'drama' causing action?

[Lyn Farel]

There are precious few of you who are anywhere near capable of "'giving 0 fucks" regarding other people and their opinions of you and your characters, and this is not a workable strategy for most people finding themselves with difficult community relations.  \

The need for social approval and validation from others runs too strong in most of us.


Anyway I think the community as a whole is generally very good about self-policing and squashing excessive derp all by itself.  These things generally work themselves out.  People are given plenty of chances to figure it out and 'the community' has limited patience.


Oh, I'll add that in my opinion, nearly ALL drama surrounding difficult players is self-inflicted. 100% believe this.

Nearly. All the dramaqueens, yeah, probably.

Anyway even if you give 0 fucks as you say, or if you give 200% fucks doesn't change the fact that a destroyed OOC reputation pretty much means social difficulties, be it by your own doing or other's doing, or both.

Also, Seriphyn is guilty. I have proofs of the infamous womanizer he is :

[spoiler]

Seriphyn Inhonores > Ardallabier, in Everywhore

[/spoiler]

[Silas Vitalia]

So the choice of reaction by the individuals who perceive the action that causes 'drama' aren't at fault for over reacting or misinterpreting the situation and reacting in a manner not really matching the 'drama' causing action?

Generally not at fault.  Individuals over react, groups of people don't all independently overreact.

And like I said groups of people don't randomly choose targets to heap shit on, it's always brought on by the individual in question, and keeps going based on them not getting the message (generally).

[Havohej]

+1 Silas.

But when I say it,  nobody gets it.   

[Silas Vitalia]

+1 Silas.

But when I say it,  nobody gets it.   

You need to -1 on fucks you give 

[Lyn Farel]

So the choice of reaction by the individuals who perceive the action that causes 'drama' aren't at fault for over reacting or misinterpreting the situation and reacting in a manner not really matching the 'drama' causing action?

Generally not at fault.  Individuals over react, groups of people don't all independently overreact.

And like I said groups of people don't randomly choose targets to heap shit on, it's always brought on by the individual in question, and keeps going based on them not getting the message (generally).

You know that this point of view is pretty tyrannical, no ? As long as you adapt and get along with the group whims and never disagree about important matters, you are going to be fine ? And if you don't, you deserved it and brought it on yourself ?

[Pieter Tuulinen]

You know that this point of view is pretty tyrannical, no ? As long as you adapt and get along with the group whims and never disagree about important matters, you are going to be fine ? And if you don't, you deserved it and brought it on yourself ?

There are two schools of thought on this. Yours is one and  the other one says that it's WAY more tyrannical to expect the rest of the community to get along with one individual.

[Merdaneth]

Since I love using analogies, instead of the traditional PvP thing, I'm going with a market one:

RPing is selling a product on a social market. If you are selling RP that has little demand, you're not gonna sell it. Advertising helps, but no amount of advertising is going to create a high demand if you're selling defender missiles. People don't need your product.

Worst thing you can for your RP product is sell something different and/or worse than you're advertising on the tin. People will get pissed off if they've invested their precious RP hours into your character, and they don't get back what they expected from their investment. Pissed off people will warn people away from your product. Again, no amount of marketing can compensate for this in the long run. People that get burned by your RP will be 10 times as much likelier to warn other people away from you than people that like your RP product will recommend it to others.

Of course, you can just ignore the community, and can focus purely on selling your brand, and your vision, because it is what you want to sell. In that case, don't whine if people aren't buying it and/or warning other people away from your product. Either don't care about it, and continue, or take the hint, and try to give them a better deal.

If your brand is backed into a corner because you sold a faulty product a few times to many, then yeah, it might not only be necessary to change the recipe, but rebrand your product as well. As Silas said, brands don't become tainted just because a few people don't like you. They become tainted because you repeatedly promise more than you deliver.

It has nothing to do with 'going along with the group' or 'not disagreeing', merely about not delivering what people want or expect from you. People are not 'shunned', others simple refuse to pay good RP money for the product you offer, as would anyone with an ounce of sense.

[Anabella Rella]

Remind me to never piss some of you people off. Whoa.

Maybe I should re-imagine Ana as a lot less confrontational and opinionated and get on the good side of the "thought leaders"? Who should I send the candy and flowers to?

 

[Merdaneth]

Who should I send the candy and flowers to?

Yes, can the infamous thought leaders step forward and name themselves?

[Steffanie Saissore]

I have spent the last couple of days trying to figure out how best to sum up my feelings on this whole thing.

On one hand, I do have some sympathy for Seri...I'm sure I'm not the only one here who went through it, but from around grade 4 to about grade 11, I had next to no friends and was the target of choice to be picked on most of the time in school.  It got so bad that in grade nine I almost went ahead with a very stupid choice...fortunately, I failed miserably at the attempt, had an epiphany and went on with my life...it still was hell.  So I know what it feels like to be the target of ridicule.  Having gone through what I did, I am a firm believer in that regardless of what anyone says, we are social creatures and we crave social interaction, attention, and in fact do care what other people think and say about us.  That whole little "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me" thing I kept being told...yeah that's a load of crock; broken bones heal, but there is nothing like the power of words when used to harm another person.  Physical scars and injuries typically disappear over time, but psychological scars and tarnished reputations tend to stick around much longer than necessary.

In many ways, I have the same attitude Pieter touched on with regards to how I interact with people.  I give a person the benefit of the doubt when I first meet/interact with them, regardless of what others might have said about them.  Yes, I may be a little more cautious about the interaction if someone I trust told me that the person was a gossip and would blab about our conversation to the world...so I might hold back on revealing more personal details about myself (if OOC or character in IC).  I am also a believer in given someone a second chance, but my good graces can and will only extend so far...abuse my trust once, and I'll be upset and a bit more guarded if I have to deal with you again. Do it a second time and do not be surprised if I do not respond or get a little snippy.  However, I don't go out of my way to spread rumors or make attacks on that person.  I may warn someone I know if I see them falling into the same traps I did, but I go to great pains to explain that what happened to me may not be what is going on, just a friendly heads-up.

The frustration here is...until I am told otherwise, I cannot break a promise made to a friend to keep private on things.  It typically takes a lot of effort and work for someone to get me angry; don't know if that's a product of being Canadian or just my personality, but I let most things slide...except for a short list of behaviours and attitudes.  I don't jump on bandwagons and I'm not a sheep, so if I'm pissed at someone, it isn't because everyone else is and I feel the need to go with the flow.  Having been the victim for several years, I don't play that game.

Does Seri deserve all of this? Oddly, I find that I want to say yes and no...yes in that he made his bed and has to deal with the consequences of his actions, both his character's actions and the player's actions. No...in that perhaps there may have been a far more constructive and helpful approach that all parties could have taken.  Personally, airing grievances on forums or the net in general is not the best way to handle a situation.  In character, Steff has no reason to ignore Seri...she might be a bit more attentive to things based on IC conversations Steff has had, but she's not going to simple give him the cold shoulder...he hasn't given her reason to.  That said, OOC, I am rather put off by the whole thing.

Can the whole thing be fixed? I would like to think so, but from my perspective, it is going to take a lot of work...

[Silver Night]

Sometimes this forum's rules protecting privacy of users in addition to the usual social standards are extremely frustrating. There is more going on than the case of someone making an unlikable character and then repeatedly complaining that nobody wants to RP with them to the point nobody wants to listen to it anymore, but only a handful of people can actually come out and spill the details without breaking the rules.

Then do it privately ? If I wanted to convince others of my point of view where sensible "shit" might break the rules, then I would do that instead.

The only thing you managed here was to post an inflammatory answer on the first thread in the middle of similar answers from others, and it did not even went into the detail you refer to...

[mod]What Morwen is referring to here is the rules that say we cannot discuss, for example, who reports what, who who gets reported for what by whom or when someone is warned or banned (much less why someone is warned or banned) or any of the (limited) personal details we have access to like email/ip/etc. The rules that protect user privacy, in other words, which we take very seriously. The only exceptions are when people bring those things up themselves (for example, saying 'Why was I wanred for x?' publicly, or 'I reported x why did you do anything?' when in fact they didn't.) That means we can't discuss it publicly, privately, or otherwise except among Backstage mods and Admins.[/mod]

Disclaimer : privately to involved people, like, you know, the people that do not understand or Seri's defenders, not randomly to newcomers that never asked for it...

And let's face it - it's not like Seriphyn's alone in this type of situation either. Most of us have seen others treated in a similar fashion through the years.

Yep. Had a few things like that when I was offline that got reported to me

[a regular in OOC] > vov neither does spewing pseudointellectual bullshit, but we've seen how well that works w/ Lyn

Not the worst of these mind you. It's just an example, i'm not going to post the worst.

Most of the time if you start a debate or don't agree with the majority, you greatly increase the chances for people to start waging a popularity war against you, constructing a whole reputation around your OOC persona that most people that do not know you personally will eventually accept as a fact.

[mod]I believe the person you are quoting here was me (though I can't verify that 100% because my HDD died a couple months ago - but it rings a bell pretty strongly and looks like my sort of turn of phrase). As a long time veteran of Eve, I am not under the illusion that anything I say in a public channel is not, in fact, public - including those occasions when I comment on other people and/or their posting here on Backstage (although it does worry me a little bit when that sort of Eve-induced borderline paranoia is vindicated.) Happily, when I am not posting here, the only rules that I have to follow are the ones that live in the venue where I am posting*. That including expressing opinions about posts and even posters here, in reference to their posts (as I am not only an Admin and mod, but a fellow Backstage user!) A thorogh search of OOC/Corp/Soundstage/etc chatlogs would no doubt reveal instances of me saying mean things about many people. I am, when not posting on Backstage, sometimes rather unkind.All of that being said, I don't have a problem with you posting that here, since the only person insulted is you and the person who posted it is me, and as I said, as many regrettable things as I may have said in public channels, I am (generally) aware that they are public channels and I assume that their content is forever available to all and sundry; however posting quotes (even anonymized) of that nature from other users will quickly get you modded, because it is basically just trolling and baiting the person quoted for a response (particularly when you post something like this without context - although IIRC the context here probably just involves me saying something mean about someone else as well). Also, you may want to clarify what you mean by 'ammo' 'just in case'. You can contact me privately or not at all, or edit your post to clarify, or not, but my first impression on reading that is that you are saying you would publish them to discredit or embarrass people if they did something you disagreed with (that is, blackmail). If that wasn't your intent you may want to make it clear. *Though when I say that, I mean the rules for Backstage users (because when I bitch about backstage users, it is mostly either in a very general way (someone is in the catacombs fifty times - I feel comfortable calling them in a pain in the ass in a non-Backstage venue without breaching confidentiality) or it is in my capacity as a user ('Morwen is fucking terrible' or 'vov neither does spewing pseudointellectual bullshit, but we've seen how well that works w/ Lyn.')) The rules regarding, for example, discussing reports/warnings/user information/etc. stand wherever I am.If you believe mods and admins should be compelled adhere to some certain code of behavior when interacting other places (beyond the one set of rules I've mentioned) then that is a topic for Mod discussion. Also, you will noticed I have not commented on your characterization of the quote as part of 'waging a popularity war against you'. That is because I am making this post as a matter of moderation, not to defend or discuss my personal views, expressed outside this forum. However, the temptation to do so is strong, which is why (as I've said) if you decide to post that type of quote from other users, you will very likely get moderated, just like for posting any other type of flamebait (and when I say 'you' I don't just mean Lyn, I mean anyone). I will appreciate it if you also refrain from responding to this post inside the thread - again, feel free to use mod discussion if you have questions or comments.[/mod]

[Silas Vitalia]

Remind me to never piss some of you people off. Whoa.

Maybe I should re-imagine Ana as a lot less confrontational and opinionated and get on the good side of the "thought leaders"? Who should I send the candy and flowers to?

 

I think my point was that there are no thought leaders at all, and the community is more of a self-regulating organism that fixes things on its own.

Graelyn had a good analogy, though.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Who should I send the candy and flowers to?

Yes, can the infamous thought leaders step forward and name themselves?

Clearly I am the Thought Leader! You may call me Her Royal Catjesty, Queen Kat the Fat of France. Meow!