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[Gottii]

Seri, can I ask, what is it you want exactly from the community at large (if there is such a thing)?  What is the purpose at this?

I know you want your character to be a Byronic Hero, which is great and all, but self-destructive manner and social pariahdom is like the ending arch of the Byronic Hero.  It aint for the faint of heart, and becoming a social outcast is part of the role.

I'm kinda outside of all of the drama, hell Im outside of the game really, but I've always gotten the vibe that you get angry for people for not liking people Seri IC, judging that it has to be based on nebulous OOC reasons.  Which can get annoying to players who try to base their actions based on IC reasons.

Like, Gottii formed his view of Seri IC when they were in ReAw together.  Seri said not two words to him, though he pestered the female members of the corp to the point of distraction.  He rarely if ever joined up in any EM combat fleets, though styled himself an elite soldier and a general later in his career, which didnt win him points in a Brutor warrior's worldview.  From all of this Gottii took with him a negative view of Seri, if he thought of him at all, pretty much based totally on IC interactions.  Being told that my viewpoint its somehow an OOC conspiracy or irrational is, again, kinda irritating.

I guess what Im asking, is, really, what do you want to happen with all of this?  What do you want from the community and your character youre not getting?

[Katrina Oniseki]

That is exactly what I said, you only comforted me further in what I find disgusting, so I will try to answer it most plainly.

Growing up does not mean in my book to actually contribute to the issue by taking part of it, and thus being fine with it. Maybe eventually that's the safest way to survive, of course, and I understand what made you say that though, but I strongly disagree, because i'm a righteous prick that has always been unable to understand the lack of principles and self discipline in most people, and that's my main obnoxious flaw, and doubled by the fact that i'm quite proud of it and wouldn't even like to change it, whatever offered in compensation. So yes, I care too much and sound like an arrogant lecturer.

Anyway, I thought I had a lot to say on the matter but this actually sums it up nicely to my eyes.

tl;dr : the bolded part

Let me point out that I don't horribly abuse people, or curbstomp them every time I get the chance. If you got to know me, you might be surprised to find I'm not a sociopathic maniac looking to climb over the dead reputations of my defeated foes.

I grew up as the victim of social dynamics because I didn't understand how they work and how to avoid common pitfalls and mistakes. I'm not advocating social lynch mobs and beating sessions. I'm not even advocating the kind of dogpiling we've seen the last few days. I am simply saying that if you don't recognize and learn how to play the social 'game', you're going to get trampled by it. Surely even you agree with that?

I'll point out that you're playing the same social game as I am. Your posts, your actions, your threads. Everything you say, every debate you take part in, every time you try to swing a group of people to your point of view - you're playing it. You're attempting to thrive in the same dog-eat-dog world we're all stuck in. You have your methods, I have mine.

[Syagrius]

I read and watched it all, now I am very sad for a variety of reasons.
 
To the Community: Whether he asked for it or not things can be said with an aim to help or hurt.  I admit I haven't always been innocent in this regard myself.  But the level of vitriol leveled against Seri in this and the associated threads troubles me.
 
To Seri: Remember young man its a game.  You have invested a great deal into and to be honest it shows.  It doesn't matter if the community is right or wrong, or whether they are being fair or not.  I think its reached the point for you that participation may not be healthy.  I personally hope you find a way.

[Vincent Pryce]

Let me point out that I don't horribly abuse people, or curbstomp them every time I get the chance.

This is true, people are confusing you with me.

[Laurentis Thiesant]

Back on topic in the case of Seri, I am still struggling to understand what makes everything he explains so quickly censured. Either in the character, or either the player. I have listened to both videos, and read most of his threads. Some sure sound a little like attention-seeking. It surely detracts on the real message.

However, I have heard several critics addressed on various places and am still trying to understand, but eventually fail every time I try.

1) Seriphyn is a womanizer. He was the first time I interacted ICly with him, but since then, I have not seen that for years. Maybe have I missed every single instance of it, it's not like i'm here all the day though. Anyway, how is a womanizer prick worse than a lot of characters around there ? It sounds pretty harmless to me in comparison of the horrendous things one can hear/read at times, coming from perfectly valid characters

2) Seriphyn is egotistical/self entitled. Oh dear, he is far from being the only one. Quite harmless compared to some truly egotistical capsuleers. Heh... Capsuleers.

3) Seri the player can not handle the consequences for the actions of his character. I am not sure that I have seen him complaining that his character is hated. At best, he might have asked for feedback, but again maybe I missed something. Most of the time, it's complaining about the community or OOC issues. All the recent posts that were quickly catacombed were not complaining of the status of Seriphyn the character in Eve. When the player behind asks for that, it seems to me that he is asking for feedback. There is a huge difference in tone between the finger pointing at OOC issues and the community, and the quiet need for feedback for a character that understandably is probably in a hard situation to play without signing a RP death warrant.

Just on the first one, and I'm speaking from somewhat outdated experience, but I would say that yeah - Seriphyn as a character does hit on female characters. It happened with Jianni once back in the day. The key part of that phrase is that it happened once under particular circumstances. He was rebuked (after much consideration), and they both moved on and had a professional working and social relationship for a long time after that.

So what if he hits on women? People do that. It's normal. It's human.
The fact that the character knew when to back off when in the right state of mind at the end of the day is more a virtue than a detriment. The fact that it happened in the first place, regardless of outcome, is realism at its finest.

I've noticed, since my return, the greater influence of character pressures trying to create some sort of standard for base characterisation and interaction. Things are very easily attacked IC for reasons that make sense more from an OOC standpoint or from simple boredom of a player not wanting to bother with something even though they should maybe be a little concerned about it.

When there are pressures, people react to it. This is just one of the ways in which it is done.

[Havohej]

No flamebait in this OP that I could see.  Good job.

Not going to bother with most of this, but here's the biggest reason Seri-mun still gets shit over Seri being a womanizer: when Seri would get rebuffed, especially after his IC reputation began to precede him, Seri-mun would come out with this woe is me attitude complaining that he couldn't get any play and accusing all sorts of people about hating him unfairly OOC.  In the beginning this was almost completely unfounded and over time as the complaining continued a lot of people got tired of trying to offer him actual good advice and/or insight and having his responses range from "you hate meh " to "yeah well that's just, like, your opinion man."  So yeah, people began disliking the mun as well as the character OR just the mun.  His inability over the years to not take IC negative responses as OOC hate has earned him an OOC reputation as a crybaby and an attention seeker with seemingly low self-esteem that is thinly masked by arrogance.  This has typically exhibited in just the sort of antics of the last couple of days, now with more YouTube.

If he'd actually take some of the advice offered to him instead of saying it's "the community, not me" I think he'd start to see better results.  The difference between him and others who have sought feedback on their toons/RP is that others generally accepted the feedback, made adjustments and benefitted where Seri-mun has ignored everything that he didn't want to hear, continued doing the same things and continued whining about how everyone is out to get him.

Here's to hoping it might be different this time.

I made it through this whole post without cussing, so... shit.

[Vikarion]

Well, as the resident [tongue-in-cheek] sociopathic maniac with no empathy [/tic], let me offer some advice.

Seri, you need to learn to tell people, in your head, to fuck off. I don't mean to their face, I don't mean going around being rude - those things cost you in the long run. Just teach yourself not to care.

Because it is obvious that you do care. Yet, wanting people to like you is a weakness that they will jump on like sharks to bleeding prey. It's an admission that, to you, what you want is less important than what they think. And, trust me, you can't make even half the people happy. Attempting to get sympathy after you've essentially hung up the "free food here" sign is not going to do you any good - it merely gives them time for another run-by and bite.

So, here's what you do. You don't wander up to the RP bar and ask for a seat. You walk up, grab a seat, shove everyone's shit out of your way, and say what you are going to do. Then, when someone whines about it, you murder the ever-loving shit out of their character on the forums, blow up their spaceships (either win for real or spin it), and don't even hint at niceness or mercy. Sell their corpses on the IGS. Be a murderous hobo with a spaceship. And if people get upset in OOC, you simply lean back in your chair, think about all the times they've attacked you, and bullshit them. A little anger goes a long way.

You are a goddamn motherfucking capsuleer. You drive ships the size of mountains through vacuum, spilling screaming bodies into space as your blasters shred hull and armor. Your character is a raving lunatic in a metal can, an engine of death that thinks he has human tendencies. Borrow a little of that for your meatspace thinking, and you'll be a lot better off.

And then, if people don't like your character, you can just shoot them until they do. :-P

...Or you could try figuring out all the things about you that make people unhappy, but that often ends with you trimming out everything that's interesting or unique. So, you know, good luck!

[Pieter Tuulinen]

Seri, in your own words you chose to play a character who is difficult to like. I've said before, and will again, that you have succeeded most excellently in that attempt. The Byronic Hero... Shall we define that concept?

"He knew himself a villain—but he deem'd
The rest no better than the thing he seem'd;
And scorn'd the best as hypocrites who hid
Those deeds the bolder spirit plainly did.
He knew himself detested, but he knew
The hearts that loath'd him, crouch'd and dreaded too.
Lone, wild, and strange, he stood alike exempt
From all affection and from all contempt."

Even from the most positive interpretation of that, you have a character that many are simply not going to want to be around. Look at some of the words - detested, loathed, villain...

But where you've really gone wrong is that the Byronic Hero is supposed to be exempt from both affection and loathing. He's not supposed to care one way or the other how people who are unimportant to him feel - and my impression is that you've never successfully carried that angle off.

Those are general comments. If I can speak personally for a moment, I've always felt that you set up a character that my own would detest on sight and on principle. You've earned the ire of at least two people that he cherishes and you play a character who could be the Ur-pattern of the Gallente blowhard. All my hate for Seriphyn is OOC - I contacted you OOC to discuss ways that we could interact to modify this and you were supremely disinterested. I've constantly tried to remind you that I hold no OOC grudge - the best intelligence I have on the matter suggests you flat out consider me a liar.

The 'greater community' is largely an illusion. It's a crazy paving of individuals and cliques. Based on your treatment of me as an individual and Seri's irrelevance within the cliques Pieter is active in, how have I short-changed you?

And, once again, the offer is open. If you want to change the dynamic between our characters, drop me an Evemail.

[Gesakaarin]

If someone comes into a public space filled with strangers and starts shouting about all their first world problems like everyone else needs to care, would it be unfair or poor form if someone eventually says, "Good sir, could you please shut up because everyone here also has their own problems in life," to them?

In much the same way, complaining and whining on the internet is a good way to generate antagonism because everyone still has their own problems except there isn't the same degree of expected politeness as might be said to exist in the real world.

[Lyn Farel]

That is exactly what I said, you only comforted me further in what I find disgusting, so I will try to answer it most plainly.

Growing up does not mean in my book to actually contribute to the issue by taking part of it, and thus being fine with it. Maybe eventually that's the safest way to survive, of course, and I understand what made you say that though, but I strongly disagree, because i'm a righteous prick that has always been unable to understand the lack of principles and self discipline in most people, and that's my main obnoxious flaw, and doubled by the fact that i'm quite proud of it and wouldn't even like to change it, whatever offered in compensation. So yes, I care too much and sound like an arrogant lecturer.

Anyway, I thought I had a lot to say on the matter but this actually sums it up nicely to my eyes.

tl;dr : the bolded part

Let me point out that I don't horribly abuse people, or curbstomp them every time I get the chance. If you got to know me, you might be surprised to find I'm not a sociopathic maniac looking to climb over the dead reputations of my defeated foes.

I grew up as the victim of social dynamics because I didn't understand how they work and how to avoid common pitfalls and mistakes. I'm not advocating social lynch mobs and beating sessions. I'm not even advocating the kind of dogpiling we've seen the last few days. I am simply saying that if you don't recognize and learn how to play the social 'game', you're going to get trampled by it. Surely even you agree with that?

I'll point out that you're playing the same social game as I am. Your posts, your actions, your threads. Everything you say, every debate you take part in, every time you try to swing a group of people to your point of view - you're playing it. You're attempting to thrive in the same dog-eat-dog world we're all stuck in. You have your methods, I have mine.

I know you are not. As said somewhere else by somebody else individuals in themselves are all nice and mature, especially in this community (one of the best). The real beast is the group, the mob.

Really, I only reacted so vehemently just because of all the crazy answers that dogpiled on this forum. And also because it hints a lot at a greater problem.

And yes, I got to play by the same social rules, but I never hide that I despise them.

Back on topic in the case of Seri, I am still struggling to understand what makes everything he explains so quickly censured. Either in the character, or either the player. I have listened to both videos, and read most of his threads. Some sure sound a little like attention-seeking. It surely detracts on the real message.

However, I have heard several critics addressed on various places and am still trying to understand, but eventually fail every time I try.

1) Seriphyn is a womanizer. He was the first time I interacted ICly with him, but since then, I have not seen that for years. Maybe have I missed every single instance of it, it's not like i'm here all the day though. Anyway, how is a womanizer prick worse than a lot of characters around there ? It sounds pretty harmless to me in comparison of the horrendous things one can hear/read at times, coming from perfectly valid characters

2) Seriphyn is egotistical/self entitled. Oh dear, he is far from being the only one. Quite harmless compared to some truly egotistical capsuleers. Heh... Capsuleers.

3) Seri the player can not handle the consequences for the actions of his character. I am not sure that I have seen him complaining that his character is hated. At best, he might have asked for feedback, but again maybe I missed something. Most of the time, it's complaining about the community or OOC issues. All the recent posts that were quickly catacombed were not complaining of the status of Seriphyn the character in Eve. When the player behind asks for that, it seems to me that he is asking for feedback. There is a huge difference in tone between the finger pointing at OOC issues and the community, and the quiet need for feedback for a character that understandably is probably in a hard situation to play without signing a RP death warrant.

Just on the first one, and I'm speaking from somewhat outdated experience, but I would say that yeah - Seriphyn as a character does hit on female characters. It happened with Jianni once back in the day. The key part of that phrase is that it happened once under particular circumstances. He was rebuked (after much consideration), and they both moved on and had a professional working and social relationship for a long time after that.

So what if he hits on women? People do that. It's normal. It's human.
The fact that the character knew when to back off when in the right state of mind at the end of the day is more a virtue than a detriment. The fact that it happened in the first place, regardless of outcome, is realism at its finest.

I've noticed, since my return, the greater influence of character pressures trying to create some sort of standard for base characterisation and interaction. Things are very easily attacked IC for reasons that make sense more from an OOC standpoint or from simple boredom of a player not wanting to bother with something even though they should maybe be a little concerned about it.

When there are pressures, people react to it. This is just one of the ways in which it is done.

I see but i'm not sure to see what you are refering to in the bolded paragraph (emphasis mine) ?

No flamebait in this OP that I could see.  Good job.

Not going to bother with most of this, but here's the biggest reason Seri-mun still gets shit over Seri being a womanizer: when Seri would get rebuffed, especially after his IC reputation began to precede him, Seri-mun would come out with this woe is me attitude complaining that he couldn't get any play and accusing all sorts of people about hating him unfairly OOC.  In the beginning this was almost completely unfounded and over time as the complaining continued a lot of people got tired of trying to offer him actual good advice and/or insight and having his responses range from "you hate meh " to "yeah well that's just, like, your opinion man."  So yeah, people began disliking the mun as well as the character OR just the mun.  His inability over the years to not take IC negative responses as OOC hate has earned him an OOC reputation as a crybaby and an attention seeker with seemingly low self-esteem that is thinly masked by arrogance.  This has typically exhibited in just the sort of antics of the last couple of days, now with more YouTube.

If he'd actually take some of the advice offered to him instead of saying it's "the community, not me" I think he'd start to see better results.  The difference between him and others who have sought feedback on their toons/RP is that others generally accepted the feedback, made adjustments and benefitted where Seri-mun has ignored everything that he didn't want to hear, continued doing the same things and continued whining about how everyone is out to get him.

Here's to hoping it might be different this time.

I made it through this whole post without cussing, so... shit.

I understand, but at first glance I thought Seri reacted like that actually because of the people being assholes with him. You tell me the opposite.

I suspect it is a bit of both in the end.

But that does not really excuse what he has to go through and how people actually can be assholes. vOv

If someone comes into a public space filled with strangers and starts shouting about all their first world problems like everyone else needs to care, would it be unfair or poor form if someone eventually says, "Good sir, could you please shut up because everyone here also has their own problems in life," to them?

In much the same way, complaining and whining on the internet is a good way to generate antagonism because everyone still has their own problems except there isn't the same degree of expected politeness as might be said to exist in the real world.

So, we are all complete strangers to each other our problems do not concern each other at all ?

[Shiori]

If someone comes into a public space filled with strangers and starts shouting about all their first world problems like everyone else needs to care, would it be unfair or poor form if someone eventually says, "Good sir, could you please shut up because everyone here also has their own problems in life," to them?

In much the same way, complaining and whining on the internet is a good way to generate antagonism because everyone still has their own problems except there isn't the same degree of expected politeness as might be said to exist in the real world.

So, we are all complete strangers to each other our problems do not concern each other at all ?

That's a bit of an exaggeration..

The thing is, once someone's decided they do not like you, for whatever reason - pitching them an impassioned plea or detailed explanation with the real or perceived subtext being "you're wrong for disliking me and my stuff, and here's why" is going to have the exact opposite of the intended effect.

Do it repeatedly while completely ignoring the signs that it's annoying a large part of the people you're trying to reach, and, well, even the normally sane and centered will start seeing you as an irritant, before anything else.

[Anslol]

Beautiful advice

You...I like you...

But back on topic. While Seri's done some dumb shit, who hasn't? Seriously, who here hasn't whined about the consequences of their actions, RP or otherwise? Yeah Seri does it more, but so do others. Not as often, but repetitively (and no I will not name names, deal with it). However, despite this, Seri gets dog piled. Every time.

What happened to the rules about being polite no matter what? What happened to the requirements of civility being maintained at all times? What happened to the supposed standards held to make this community upstanding and great? What, as soon as one guy pops up and has a bitch and a moan we drop it and dog pile him and tell everyone else not to interact with him to the point he's making gods be damned videos trying to explain shit? Yeah he comes off as a bit nose-in-the-air the first time, but the second time not so much.

The dude is trying. Hard. Yet people still do target him and pull out shit about womanizing and bad behavior. I'm sorry, but telling people secretly not to RP with him, particularly new bloods, is just as fucking bad. This isn't to say Seri is 100% innocent, but how the hell can he start fresh or try again when EVERYONE is keeping RP away from him until he meets criteria x, y, and z? ESPECIALLY when the aforementioned accusations (womanizing, etc) haven't even been observed for...fucking ever it seems. The guy wants to try again, but why does it have to be on someone elses terms? Why does he have to do what others say with his character instead of letting it evolve naturally with his new and (hopefully) more mature and learned OOC outlook?

For fuck's sake people, this is worse than high school drama. Christ. The least that could happen is to not tell everyone behind his back all this bullshit about him to keep him from getting any interaction to let his character grow and change. AT THE LEAST.

@Seri: I STRONGLY urge you to take Vikarion's advice. It's good, solid, and will work for you. Forget validation from everyone else. Who cares what they think. Let your actions speak and be confident about what you do without a damn for other people's thoughts. If they don't like it? Tough. You're having fun and they can't stop you. Go forth, take your lessons learned, and walk tall.

[Gesakaarin]

So, we are all complete strangers to each other our problems do not concern each other at all ?

No, I'm saying there is a difference between expressing a problem or issue which might garner legitimate concern and continuously expressing trite or inconsequential problems seeking validation or attention from others which might promote antagonistic attitudes from people whose patience for having to deal with trite or inconsequential problems (as they see it) is particularly low.

In such a situation, if enough people experience someone doing so and form the opinion, "Man, I've got my own bloody problems in life and here's this person continuously attention whoring for sympathy with what I think to be pointless crap about their life," then perhaps the issue doesn't lie with them?

In my experience, if you go on the internet with the explicit intent to garner attention or sympathy by just moaning about your problems until people find it nauseating then don't be surprised if you garner negative reactions.

[Lyn Farel]

On that I agree, but that hardly sounds like your previous analogy...

[Pieter Tuulinen]

Why is this so hard? There are two ways to interact with people in Eve - through the game mechanics and via channel/forum RP.

You may interact with people ingame in ANY manner that you choose that the game mechanics allow. You may NOT interact with people ingame in ANY manner that the game mechanics do not allow. Vikarion's point that you can always interact with people by violencing their spaceboats is a good one, as efficient violencing of spaceboats speaks for itself and can give one the moral highground.

However there is no means of FORCING someone to interact with your character in forum/channel RP. You have to offer them something that is of perceptible value to them/their character.

This has, perhaps, led to what Silas views as the 'fluffy bunny' state of the RP community, where everyone is friends - but I think that perception ignores the value of a good antagonist. What nobody wants is a boring antagonist or an antagonist that offers nothing of RP value.

The TL&DR version of this is that if you get pleasure out of your character's interaction with others, you have to sell people the idea that interacting with your character will be fun. You probably have to diversify the interaction that your character offers, too. Perhaps if the initial strategy followed had been one of 'I know I've screwed up somehow, how do we fix it?' different advice would have been offered.

Perhaps the community DOES lack taste and sense if they don't like your character, but pointing it out is simply going to entrench the issue! I notice that despite the amount of discussion nobody has actually altered their opinion - the same people speaking in support of Seri then are supporting him now, the same people telling him to do what he wants and stop caring about the opinions of others are still saying that and those who think the physician should heal himself are still pointing THAT out.