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Author Topic: U.S. vs Syria  (Read 13680 times)

Vikarion

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Re: U.S. vs Syria
« Reply #45 on: 28 Aug 2013, 02:25 »

by your spineless reckoning we should have avoided the conflict in Germany 1938. The world is cruel but if any state has the means to lessen the suffering of another, they should try. Even when they are wrong, they do less damage than to let mass murderers have free reign.

in your isolationist world the richest most powerful country casts a cold eye upon the rest of the world, how sad. If american reap the rewards of being the global consumer of last choice, we at least can dump some of our billions into the rest of the world If not, I'll impress upon you, that there is no such thing as an isolationist superpower.

In 1917, the United States intervened in a European war that it, largely, had almost no interests in. Had the United States not intervened, given the German troops transferring from the eastern front, Germany might well have been the one dictating terms, especially if it continued to execute submarine warfare. But Woodrow Wilson felt that we must intervene to "make the world safe for democracy".

Did he make the world safe for democracy? Rather not. The fall of Germany, especially in the way in which it fell, helped pave the way for both the long-term success of the USSR and the rise of Nazi Germany, perhaps the two most cruel regimes in history. Thousands of American lives were spent for nothing. Less than nothing, actually.

There are different means of measuring a superpower. Certainly, I believe in a strong military, although perhaps not one as expensive as ours. But whether we want to call ourselves a superpower or not - and I wonder at the arrogance of doing so, at times - what moral law dictates that a superpower is responsible for its neighbors?

The argument for intervening in Syria seems to be a moral one. But where is this morality when the Chinese oppress the Tibetans, when the Russians slaughter Chechens, when Iran hangs and/or stones innocents? Is our military moral police only supposed to intervene against weak criminals? Of course, this is a matter of practicality - the United States is not going to start a war with Russia to save the Chechens. Why not? Because the responsibility of the United State's government is to protect its own citizens, not send them off to war to die for others. A war with Russia or China might eventually be enormously beneficial for oppressed peoples in those countries, but it would be devastating for the United States, even in the highly likely event that we won. We naturally seek to avoid outcomes that are unfavorable for us. Why are we to suddenly exempt ourselves from this practicality?

We elect and select our leaders based on the expectation that they will do the best they can for the American people. If we were truly interested in the best for other countries, we wouldn't prosecute people for treason when they spy for those countries. We wouldn't become upset when those countries act in ways that take advantage of us. But we do. This world actually is cold and cruel, and countries that act without care for their own interests tend to be devoured quickly.

Yes, it is horrible to see dead children. But, again, so what? Why are dead Syrians more important than American lives, and American treasure? More to the point, by what authority or moral precept are we obligated to save others at our own cost?

Decisions made on the basis of emotion are bad decisions. Demanding that entities sacrifice their own interests is generally unreasonable. The powerful are not obligated by virtue of being powerful to serve the interests of those who are not - my status as a relatively well-muscled individual does not obligate me to carry heavy objects for everyone who cannot. And it is not the responsibility of the American people to make everything work for everyone else. If that inspires a nation here or there to not sell things to us, this will not harm us as much as trying to fix things for others already has.

It's one thing if rescuing Syrians or fighting for them was useful. But it doesn't seem to be, in a strict cost-benefit analysis. Why is it our responsibility to fix things for others? Why should it be? You aren't obligated to risk your life to save a drowning person. You aren't obligated to use all your excess assets to save those starving in other countries. So why is it reasonable to ask that the government of the United States tell its military men that they must risk their lives to save people they have no investment in saving, and also to inform American taxpayers that billions of dollars that might be spent on education or food aid in our country, on behalf of the people who contributed towards it, are now to be devoted to a nation who, if we are lucky, just might barely avoid sending armed men to our shores to kill our women and children.
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Nmaro Makari

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Re: U.S. vs Syria
« Reply #46 on: 28 Aug 2013, 02:41 »

by your spineless reckoning we should have avoided the conflict in Germany 1938. The world is cruel but if any state has the means to lessen the suffering of another, they should try. Even when they are wrong, they do less damage than to let mass murderers have free reign.

in your isolationist world the richest most powerful country casts a cold eye upon the rest of the world, how sad. If american reap the rewards of being the global consumer of last choice, we at least can dump some of our billions into the rest of the world If not, I'll impress upon you, that there is no such thing as an isolationist superpower.

In 1917, the United States intervened in a European war that it, largely, had almost no interests in. Had the United States not intervened, given the German troops transferring from the eastern front, Germany might well have been the one dictating terms, especially if it continued to execute submarine warfare. But Woodrow Wilson felt that we must intervene to "make the world safe for democracy".

Did he make the world safe for democracy? Rather not. The fall of Germany, especially in the way in which it fell, helped pave the way for both the long-term success of the USSR and the rise of Nazi Germany, perhaps the two most cruel regimes in history. Thousands of American lives were spent for nothing. Less than nothing, actually.

There are different means of measuring a superpower. Certainly, I believe in a strong military, although perhaps not one as expensive as ours. But whether we want to call ourselves a superpower or not - and I wonder at the arrogance of doing so, at times - what moral law dictates that a superpower is responsible for its neighbors?

The argument for intervening in Syria seems to be a moral one. But where is this morality when the Chinese oppress the Tibetans, when the Russians slaughter Chechens, when Iran hangs and/or stones innocents? Is our military moral police only supposed to intervene against weak criminals? Of course, this is a matter of practicality - the United States is not going to start a war with Russia to save the Chechens. Why not? Because the responsibility of the United State's government is to protect its own citizens, not send them off to war to die for others. A war with Russia or China might eventually be enormously beneficial for oppressed peoples in those countries, but it would be devastating for the United States, even in the highly likely event that we won. We naturally seek to avoid outcomes that are unfavorable for us. Why are we to suddenly exempt ourselves from this practicality?

We elect and select our leaders based on the expectation that they will do the best they can for the American people. If we were truly interested in the best for other countries, we wouldn't prosecute people for treason when they spy for those countries. We wouldn't become upset when those countries act in ways that take advantage of us. But we do. This world actually is cold and cruel, and countries that act without care for their own interests tend to be devoured quickly.

Yes, it is horrible to see dead children. But, again, so what? Why are dead Syrians more important than American lives, and American treasure? More to the point, by what authority or moral precept are we obligated to save others at our own cost?

Decisions made on the basis of emotion are bad decisions. Demanding that entities sacrifice their own interests is generally unreasonable. The powerful are not obligated by virtue of being powerful to serve the interests of those who are not - my status as a relatively well-muscled individual does not obligate me to carry heavy objects for everyone who cannot. And it is not the responsibility of the American people to make everything work for everyone else. If that inspires a nation here or there to not sell things to us, this will not harm us as much as trying to fix things for others already has.

It's one thing if rescuing Syrians or fighting for them was useful. But it doesn't seem to be, in a strict cost-benefit analysis. Why is it our responsibility to fix things for others? Why should it be? You aren't obligated to risk your life to save a drowning person. You aren't obligated to use all your excess assets to save those starving in other countries. So why is it reasonable to ask that the government of the United States tell its military men that they must risk their lives to save people they have no investment in saving, and also to inform American taxpayers that billions of dollars that might be spent on education or food aid in our country, on behalf of the people who contributed towards it, are now to be devoted to a nation who, if we are lucky, just might barely avoid sending armed men to our shores to kill our women and children.

Much as I want to blare out messages of the Social Contract, interconnected society, and common good, when it comes to intervention we mostly agree. Leaders must think of their own citizens first and foremost, it's what they are in place to do.
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Vikarion

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Re: U.S. vs Syria
« Reply #47 on: 28 Aug 2013, 02:56 »

Much as I want to blare out messages of the Social Contract, interconnected society, and common good, when it comes to intervention we mostly agree. Leaders must think of their own citizens first and foremost, it's what they are in place to do.

Just as well. I don't agree with those ideas as being validated by our current understanding and knowledge of science. Especially in the areas of game theory, evolutionary biology, and the harder forms of sociology.
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Aelisha Montenagre

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Re: U.S. vs Syria
« Reply #48 on: 28 Aug 2013, 04:11 »

Is it possible to add a 'don't know' or 'dependent on UN resolution' option?  This poll is far from representative and I only voted Yes because of my reading of the current situation - I'll likely flip flop between the two until the button gets pressed for better or worse.

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Anslol

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Re: U.S. vs Syria
« Reply #49 on: 28 Aug 2013, 07:36 »

Is it possible to add a 'don't know' or 'dependent on UN resolution' option?  This poll is far from representative and I only voted Yes because of my reading of the current situation - I'll likely flip flop between the two until the button gets pressed for better or worse.

No. I meant for this poll to be as blunt and straightforward as possible. No it depends, no don't know, no maybe. Either yes, or no, full on.

I said it once and I'll say it again. I don't care what's found, I don't care what country says we should act, and I certainly don't care if we lose face internationally. I am sick to death of us getting involved everywhere in the world save for here at home. Our economy is in the shit. Graduates are coming out with more debt than they can ever HOPE to pay off. Public schools and education are getting budget cuts up the ass. Our infrastructure (roads, power lines, etc) are deteriorating and could be helped, ALONG with our economy, by investing here at home. Our borders are overrun by drug smugglers and a cartel puppet government just on the other side. God dammit, one of our major city's is completely bankrupt and a veritable war zone (Detroit).

I DON'T CARE WHAT THE HELL HAPPENS IN THE MIDDLE EAST ANYMORE! We are NOT the knights of good and honor. We're a country, we have interests, and I'm sick of them getting put on the back burner for others because they say we should act and when we do, we get criticized. Fine. DO IT YOURSELF.

I'm sick of our tax dollars investing and propping up other countries for little/no ROI when it could be used to bolster America. I'm sick of our soldiers dying in wars we don't even have to get involved in. I'm sick of our interventionism.

Fuck the rest, we have our own problems. Bring everyone home, invest in our own economy, and clean up our own house. Who the hell are we to go tell others how to manage their house when ours is in shambles? Screw. That.
« Last Edit: 28 Aug 2013, 07:37 by Anslol »
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Aelisha Montenagre

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Re: U.S. vs Syria
« Reply #50 on: 28 Aug 2013, 07:37 »

Ok, my answer remains Yes on the grounds stated in my first post.
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Anslol

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Re: U.S. vs Syria
« Reply #51 on: 28 Aug 2013, 07:47 »

Sorry that my post offended/ranted. I'm just really done with us 'helping' everyone else but ourselves.
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Morwen Lagann

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Re: U.S. vs Syria
« Reply #52 on: 28 Aug 2013, 07:56 »

[mod]Mod-hat on for a moment.
This thread, as is normal for heated political subjects, has veered dangerously close to the point of no return several times, and there are a number of catacomb-worthy posts in here already.
Stay civil and post within the rules of Backstage or we're going to apply my personal preference for foreign policy: if people can't play nice, glass it from orbit.[/mod]
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3) The lack of suitable male partners can be summed up in most cases thusly: interested, worth the air they breathe, available; pick two.

Sofia Roseburn

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Re: U.S. vs Syria
« Reply #53 on: 28 Aug 2013, 08:03 »

It's not so much that your post offended and/or ranted Anslo, it's more the fact that it's grounded in ignorance.

Foregoing your obligations as a country, which, by the way, were agreed to when becoming a member of the UN, for the purpose of improving personal GDP is morally wrong.

It's one of those situations that can't I can't even cite any evidence to add validity to your wish because there haven't been any situations where what you are suggesting has been considered. Anyone in charge of a country is aware of their obligations to the international community, and acknowledges their role in maintaining world order.

If the situation became such that it was not economically viable for a country to involve themselves in a conflict elsewhere then there'd be more going on than just people saying "I'm sick and tired of people turning to us to sort out world issues".

For the record, I voted yes, for exactly the reasons that Aelisha has already pointed out. The poll is fundamentally flawed.
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Anslol

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Re: U.S. vs Syria
« Reply #54 on: 28 Aug 2013, 08:21 »

It's not so much that your post offended and/or ranted Anslo, it's more the fact that it's grounded in ignorance.

Foregoing your obligations as a country, which, by the way, were agreed to when becoming a member of the UN, for the purpose of improving personal GDP is morally wrong.

It's one of those situations that can't I can't even cite any evidence to add validity to your wish because there haven't been any situations where what you are suggesting has been considered. Anyone in charge of a country is aware of their obligations to the international community, and acknowledges their role in maintaining world order.

If the situation became such that it was not economically viable for a country to involve themselves in a conflict elsewhere then there'd be more going on than just people saying "I'm sick and tired of people turning to us to sort out world issues".

For the record, I voted yes, for exactly the reasons that Aelisha has already pointed out. The poll is fundamentally flawed.

Alright. We're a member of the UN. Fine. But we have our own system in the US. We don't jump to the call of the UN. We aren't its personal army. It comes to a vote, and the voters don't want it because they know how bad OUR situation is.

You don't live here in the states so I can see why you'd say what you say. But the fact is, it isn't all milk and honey here in America. We can't afford another war, literally. We don't even have the money to pay for public schools. We're just racking up debt on a credit card. The last thing we need is more debt for another war instead of repairing our economy and country. This isn't us being greedy or wanting to bolster our GDP just for the hell of it. We LITERALLY cannot afford anything now.

And for the record, I am sick and tired PERSONALLY. My opinion doesn't reflect the justification of not wanting war for the 90%+ of Americans who don't want it. They're more concerned with a lot of the other reasons I mentioned (infrastructure, economy, etc). We can't afford it and shouldn't have to worry about affording it in the first place. Especially at the cost of the well being of more of our countrymen.

Also, the poll is flawed in your opinion. It is meant to be that way. It is meant to be simple. You answered yes because of your interpretation of the current situation and that is 100% legitimate and informed. But don't go saying it's flawed because it doesn't leave wiggle room with 'maybes' and 'it depends.'
« Last Edit: 28 Aug 2013, 08:24 by Anslol »
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Sofia Roseburn

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Re: U.S. vs Syria
« Reply #55 on: 28 Aug 2013, 08:45 »

[spoiler]
Alright. We're a member of the UN. Fine. But we have our own system in the US. We don't jump to the call of the UN. We aren't its personal army. You don't live here so I can see why you'd say what you say. But the fact is, it isn't all milk and honey here in America. We can't afford another war, literally. We don't even have the money to pay for public schools. We're just racking up debt on a credit card. The last thing we need is more debt for another war instead of repairing our economy and country.
[/spoiler]

Agreed, you don't jump to the beck and call of the UN. In fact, you do the exact opposite in some cases, taking actions in situations where military intervention has not been sanctioned. That's not me bashing the US, that's just how things have panned out. The precedent has been set, America has been cited as the leader of the free world and has shown to everyone that they are willing to assist in the majority of cases where there is a benefit to the affected individual(s).

Financially I think we can agree you have the semblance of a point, but are being rather condescending in how you present it. People outside the US can have a pretty in depth understanding of the countries financial system and woes at present because it's quite well presented in the media and, in general conversation. Either way, the US' financial situation is acknowledged, but in attempting to resolve that you don't cold turkey; you tone things down, which is what has been going on for the past 5 or so years. No full blown military interventions, the down-scaling of the armed forces, cuts all over the place. Sure it won't stop you from going over your extended debt ceiling in October, but you're making Syria out to be the icing on the cake when in actuality there's other situations that have been brewing for years (15+) which have more impact than their current state of affairs.

[spoiler]
And for the record, I am sick and tired PERSONALLY. My opinion doesn't reflect the justification of not wanting war for the 90%+ of Americans who don't want it. They're more concerned with a lot of the other reasons I mentioned (infrastructure, economy, etc). We can't afford it and shouldn't have to worry about affording it in the first place. Especially at the cost of the well being of more of our countrymen.
[/spoiler]

Then what? Your issue is more with the way in which America is perceived by the international community? Fact is, the only reason that America is where it is is due to the choices of its residents. It's all very well and good stating that you want change, but everything that you have presented so far is for the long term. There's been no consideration of the short term which will have a direct effect on how those long term goals are achieved, which is required if you want to throw any sort of solidity behind your stance on American foreign policy.

[spoiler]
Also, the poll is flawed in your opinion. It is meant to be that way. It is meant to be simple. You answered yes because of your interpretation of the current situation and that is 100% legitimate and informed. But don't go saying it's flawed because it doesn't leave wiggle room with 'maybes' and 'it depends.'
[/spoiler]

Yet the maybes and it depends are exactly the things that Obama, Cameron etc are considering when they look at military intervention. Why do you not afford us the same opportunity?
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DeadRow

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Re: U.S. vs Syria
« Reply #56 on: 28 Aug 2013, 08:49 »

Alright. We're a member of the UN. Fine. But we have our own system in the US. We don't jump to the call of the UN. We aren't its personal army. It comes to a vote, and the voters don't want it because they know how bad OUR situation is.

You do realise that other countries militaries will be involved if the UN decide to intervene, right?

The US might contribute the most in such a situation because they project so much power around the world, but don't think you're some lone warrior in this affair. Bringing all your assets home will not help your domestic troubles either, what are you going to do? Decommission half your fleet and have all that manpower suddenly looking for work?

I voted No because I don't know all the facts. These attacks could have come from either side and aiding the rebels who have dubious links to terrorist organisations seems like you'll be replacing one dictator for something worse.
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Anslol

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Re: U.S. vs Syria
« Reply #57 on: 28 Aug 2013, 09:01 »

@Sofia:
You're right, the U.S. has shown that and I really wish we didn't. Every time we intervene things don't really get better. It's what got us into this mess financially in the first place (on top of other things). And you're right, Syria isn't going to be the straw on the camel's back. But it's just...de ja vu. You'd think we'd learn lessons from Libya and such, but no. It's a small thing financially, you're right. But it's a start nonetheless to cease military intervention and sinking more money we don't have in the long run. Short term action now lays the foundation for long term action and policy in the future. Policy that doesn't involve running in and shooting stuff.

As for the poll, maybe doesn't really say anything. Might as well not answer. Like I said before. You saying yes based on your current understanding of the situation isn't wrong or whatever. It's your decision, informed, and researched, and it's completely legitimate. I'm not questioning WHY you'd say yes or no. I'm not saying present whatever evidence. Just based on what you know now, should or should we not attack?

Oh, also our Congress is on holiday and if the Administration launches an attack even WITH the UN's consent...that's a crime and he's in a potential load of trouble.

@Deadrow:
I know we wouldn't go it alone if it happened. Sorry if I didn't clarify that. It's clear that it's be a multinational effort (which sort of scares me if Russia and China decide to enforce their vote against action in Syria with their own 'toys'). But we'd still be sending our people and machines in, which costs money we don't have (which is something the Pentagon should be reminded of after buying MORE F-35 ENGINES).

Should we decommission ships and bases?...No. Should we tone down deployment and production of more expensive weapons? Yes. Use the money that'd go to another war with who knows what consequences and reinvest here at home.
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Sofia Roseburn

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Re: U.S. vs Syria
« Reply #58 on: 28 Aug 2013, 09:19 »

tl;dr

It's pretty clear that your gripe is with the lack of fiscal responsibility that the US has had over the past couple of decades, and part of that has been contributed to by America's involvement in world affairs. That's something I can agree with, because it could have been handled better.

However.

What you need to remember is that there are currently very few countries that are in a position to actually assist in maintaining world order. That's something that America has been trying to fix (look at the amount of military aid you guys give to other countries, for better or worse).  On the back of that, a lot of the countries that said military aid is going to are countries that only have issues due to the pretty awful handling of the breakdown of the British and French empires in the mid 20th century. Can you imagine what would happen if America pulled out of even a couple of those agreements without severely considering what the effects might be? The situation might turn into one where it becomes worse than it was before involvement.

Things take time. My suggestion to you would be to look at the current situation of the world stage, because there's a lot coming to head now that has been brewing for a long time. Base your opinion of how to proceed after taking that into consideration, because even though on the surface America isn't directly affected there's a lot of knock on effects there that will.
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Anslol

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Re: U.S. vs Syria
« Reply #59 on: 28 Aug 2013, 09:24 »

I suppose you're right. Your points are logical in their foresight. But still, aside from the fiscal issues, I don't want another war. Most of us here (U.S.) just don't want another gods' damned war if we can stay out of it. We just got too much going on here that needs dealt with.

This obviously isn't completely true and there's more to the situation than meets the eye, but it's like our government JUMPS to help the world but ignores the pleas and problems we have here. Yes our problems are no where near as bad as other countries and I'm grateful for it. But still, we DO have them. You'd think our electorate would deal with them. But no, they just launch wars and debate Obamacare for the 47th time.
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