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[Silas Vitalia]

I guess the thing is that if we are putting up walls between 'safe' and 'unsafe' areas then the divisions need to be just as strong with regards to rewards and the benefits of those activities.

I've got no problem with people PVE'ing to their heart's content, day in and day out, and never ever once shooting a laser at another player. Super good for them, enjoy your time. 


I think being able to generate the sort of rewards that people can with 0 risk 'cheapens' the game play of people who are doing things a bit more risk-intensive.   


IMO The balance is just off right now is all. Why bother doing exploration, or mining, or missioning in bad neighborhoods when you can do just as well for your wallet 100% safely? The fact that you can do it safely doesn't bother me, it's that the rewards for doing it safely currently make doing it unsafely a complete joke.  And since all the markets, and trade items, and manufacturing, etc are all linked, the actions of people not risking their butts still effects the rest of the player base.

I just don't like all the easy money faucets in highsec that effect prices, demand, etc for ships and items.  If you want to run missions and never ever shoot at people that's super fine, maybe we can make a special set of modules that only work in highsec that missioners will want to use so you stop effecting the supply and demand and prices of 'x' items or whatever.

[Lyn Farel]

There should be more gradual ways to introduce new players to combat gameplay and losing the risk-averse nature of having your bits and bytes temporarily removed. 

As long as it takes time and tedious grind to make money and afford pvp ships, I don't see why I would lose my risk averse mentality. Except if I only start to fly in frigates or something... And even these cost money with a regular T2/rigs/faction ammo pvp fit.

That's the price you pay for your daily adrenaline.

How do you make money yourself to afford your pvp fix, btw ?

[Silas Vitalia]

How do you make money yourself to afford your pvp fix, btw ?

It's less about earning money and more about not dying   (Although dying in a ball of glorious fire is highly underrated sometimes)

I'm 261/5 so far this year

[Caellach Marellus]

The thing is that comes with years of experience.

If you're a newer person to PvP your K/D ratio is going to be firmly in the reverse position, thus income is needed.

[Lyn Farel]

No I can do not dying pretty easily if in a good fleet. I rarely died and had an "incredible" ratio in FW when I still got from time to time in fleets... Especially when I changed the armageddon for an Abaddon (that never died btw, that thing never fucking died because I never got primary)

In solo or very small groups it's another matter. You just die here and there, period, and it costs money.

Edit : killboard ratios and stats mean nothing anyway. I'm a little annoyed when I get them pointed out as facts or somehow relevant info when they never were in the first place.

[Silas Vitalia]

This brings up a good point though, I'd be -all- for revamping the rewards for dying.

Seriously, say your first month as a new capsuleer you are given a replacement ship up to say, cruiser, for free, when you die.  Some sort of slightly shitty basic cruiser (like 4/4/4) with stats lower than the regular ones, that you get replaced free of charge when you die.  Maybe even special weapon set for it.

Non-transferable, non scrappable, etc. 

Idea is you are a new player in this game? HERE HAVE FUN for one month. All your losses are covered, go learn how to die. See? Not so bad!

[Louella Dougans]

risk reward does not work in the way that people think.

high-reward things in low/null sec, what happens is, the income thing is monopolised by a group that can repel/deter interference, allowing them to make large sums, which means they can afford to repel/deter interference.

This is done more easily during times of low server population.

Blobs and farmers. vOv

[Shintoko Akahoshi]

How do you make money yourself to afford your pvp fix, btw ?

Easy. Don't pvp in ships you can't afford to lose.

Which sounds quite flip, but it's accurate, too. If you can't afford to lose capital ships, don't pvp in capital ships. If you can't afford to lose T2, don't pvp in T2. With FW, especially, it's very feasible to pvp in T1 frigates. While a nicely appointed T2-fitted frigate might set you back 10-15 mil, it's also perfectly simple to fit one out with meta T1 gear for about 1-2 million.

Which means that running a single L4 mission could easily fund a baker's dozen of pvp frigates. If you're not up to soloing L4s, learn to salvage and fly as salvager for a friend's L4 missions. You'll be able to fit at least a few of those 1-2 million isk pvp frigates from the sale of one missions worth of salvage.

I pvped exclusively through the Great Northern War, flying T1 and T2 frigates with less than 20 million isk in my wallet. While I did start ratting towards the end to make money for larger ships, that was still at least 6 months of solid, daily pvp using only the sale of loot and Jericho Fraction's ship replacement program to fund my losses.

And squad-level pvp wing needs tacklers, and a tackling frigate can easily be fitted out for under a million. Start bringing those and your fleet-mates will happily help you fund your losses while thanking you profusely for helping them get kills.

Nerfing hi-sec will never herd the cattle into low-sec. They will simply quit and go elsewhere to other games where they can play their PvE grind.

This, ultimately, is a big part of the problem (and I'm not accusing you of holding the view, Caellach. I'm just using your quote as an example). There's a certain subset of pvpers who are looking for ganks, not fights. Which, in my opinion, isn't too far off from PVE. Just with real humans playing the part of red crosses.

I'd argue that we don't want to force PVEers to go get ganked in low sec. We want them to want to come experience the dangers and excitement of low sec. We want them to be like that miner who started posting recently talking about the thrill of going into low sec and 0.0 looking for rewarding ore. They're having a blast finding it, evading enemies, and the like. And someday they'll get ganked, and they'll learn from it, and they'll set up another ship and go at it again. Because they enjoy it, and because they want to.

[kalaratiri]

While a nicely appointed T2-fitted frigate might set you back 10-15 mil, it's also perfectly simple to fit one out with meta T1 gear for about 1-2 million.

Make that more like 30-40m for a T2 frig.

[Katrina Oniseki]

I'd argue that we don't want to force PVEers to go get ganked in low sec. We want them to want to come experience the dangers and excitement of low sec. We want them to be like that miner who started posting recently talking about the thrill of going into low sec and 0.0 looking for rewarding ore. They're having a blast finding it, evading enemies, and the like. And someday they'll get ganked, and they'll learn from it, and they'll set up another ship and go at it again. Because they enjoy it, and because they want to.

So then what is the real issue with people not doing so now? How can we fix the issue as players without waiting for CCP to do it for us? Clearly waiting for them to nerf highsec or buff lowsec isn't going to happen tomorrow, so what can we start doing tomorrow?

Is it our attitude out there? Is it the way we publicize (or don't publicize) PvP opportunities for newbies? Is it the money issue?

Would it be feasible to change our attitude to a more sporting (and less smacking) one, encouraging a sort of 'casual PvP' culture? Would it be feasible to help educate newbies and carebears towards the fun of PvP like that aforementioned post? Would it be feasible to help fund them by dumping ISK in their wallets to help them lose it, a financial mentor program?

[AOkazon]

If someone looks low-sp, reimbursing them for ganks is a thing that is possible.

[BloodBird]

How do you make money yourself to afford your pvp fix, btw ?

It's less about earning money and more about not dying   (Although dying in a ball of glorious fire is highly underrated sometimes)

I'm 261/5 so far this year

I'm glad to hear you are doing well, but the 'carebears' of high-sec are not the only risk-averse people in EVE. It's pretty epidemic with the current mentality among players, the current meta and the kill-board worshiping that goes on everywhere.

As long as the whole playerbase revolves around winning at all costs and define winning differently we will have this issue - the high-sec'ers will keep mining, missioning, incursion running and so on with the aim of limiting or eliminating the risk they take for the sake of earning money. To some that is the end goal, to some it's a means to an end - getting more stuff to blow up other stuff with.

And those will do their damn best to avoid losing their ships while blowing up the ships of others. Getting tackled is an issue? Kite. Enemy numbers an issue? Blob harder. Enemy cohesion and teamwork to hard to beat? Meta-it-up and infiltrate their organization, steal their stuff, leech their members, break their morale, pop their towers and take their space while they are, preferably, offline or seriously outnumbered so that it's better to cut losses and leave then even try to fight back.

And so on, and so forth.

I do believe we have been over this before so I will not continue, but  would like to point out that while you see an issue with high-sec being to profitable for to little risk (if I understood you right, that is) I see this as one symptom of a much wider and more entrenched issue. I have no idea how to get people's goals to change from "win at all costs" to "have fun no matter what happens" but I think a needed first step would be to remove killboards completely, to remove the aversion to getting worse 'stats'. Obviously, this will never ever happen.

Do or die style brawling will never come back to the game's PVP-meta, and high-sec ISK grinders will not be leaving their safe(ish) farming environment for any reason, unless some major changes are done.

[Shintoko Akahoshi]

While a nicely appointed T2-fitted frigate might set you back 10-15 mil, it's also perfectly simple to fit one out with meta T1 gear for about 1-2 million.

Make that more like 30-40m for a T2 frig.

Na, I'm talking about a T1 frigate fitted with appropriate T2 modules, not a fully T2-kitted T2 frigate. Those are certainly more expensive.

[Lyn Farel]

How do you make money yourself to afford your pvp fix, btw ?

Easy. Don't pvp in ships you can't afford to lose.

Which sounds quite flip, but it's accurate, too. If you can't afford to lose capital ships, don't pvp in capital ships. If you can't afford to lose T2, don't pvp in T2. With FW, especially, it's very feasible to pvp in T1 frigates. While a nicely appointed T2-fitted frigate might set you back 10-15 mil, it's also perfectly simple to fit one out with meta T1 gear for about 1-2 million.

Which means that running a single L4 mission could easily fund a baker's dozen of pvp frigates. If you're not up to soloing L4s, learn to salvage and fly as salvager for a friend's L4 missions. You'll be able to fit at least a few of those 1-2 million isk pvp frigates from the sale of one missions worth of salvage.

I pvped exclusively through the Great Northern War, flying T1 and T2 frigates with less than 20 million isk in my wallet. While I did start ratting towards the end to make money for larger ships, that was still at least 6 months of solid, daily pvp using only the sale of loot and Jericho Fraction's ship replacement program to fund my losses.

And squad-level pvp wing needs tacklers, and a tackling frigate can easily be fitted out for under a million. Start bringing those and your fleet-mates will happily help you fund your losses while thanking you profusely for helping them get kills.

Oh please, I have done years of pvp, i know how it works. I may have had the patience to farm things to afford my pvp ships, but that was still a big hassle. And yes, even for frigates. When you tend to lose those by 3 or 4, it's already more than 75M isk.

I have 115M SP, what are they for if that's for me to only fly in cheap T1 fitted T1 frigates ? What are they for since in solo pvp you mostly need your T2, rigged, faction ammo, nanite pasted (and maybe boosters too) ship to perform decently ? I perfectly understand that it's possible to win by being cunning with a cheap fit, engaging the right things, and all. But when facing people that know what they are doing, and that have skills, you need the slightest bit of advantage you can get, or it seriously limits your targets. Unless you want to spend your time to die, which is maybe fine for a newbie that is discovering pvp the hard way, but not for a vet.

Tbh I envy noobs starting pvp early, their ships are cheap/expendable, even if they do not earn much, and they have costless clones and so on. Now that I look back, finding the funds for the next class of ship (a BC, a BS) was maybe a tantalizing experience at first, but financing the cheap T1 frig I was using was a piece of cake. I should have started pvp that early...

So yes, at the end of my pvp life it started to look like the beginning of my pvp life. You start with cheap shit because that's only what you can fly and afford, and then you begin to use expensive stuff, cruisers, BCs, BSes, T2 cruisers, etc. And when you eventually start to be so bored of farming that you barely make 200M a month through utter disgust, you stop using all of these ships and get back to the cheap shit you used as a noob. Feels a bit like playing an incontinent old man at the end of his life.

So no, that's not easy. The financing part of that game is partially borked. A game is meant to be fun to play. Farming is not, except for the hardcore carebears that run them all the day (and usually do not even pvp).

I have had great fun and my best adrenaline filled moments in expensive ships too. I have banzai-ed in a dread that I barely used once of twice in combat, but what a thrill. I couldn't "afford" to lose it, but what the hell, I went for it with Eran and it payed off. Well technically I could afford it have I had the courage to farm it back for days. That's the problem.

You know what ? People may think what they want of Akhesanpathemka-something (can't remember the spelling of her name) when she ran for the CSM, and she may have had fucked up in many ways, but her main motivator was "I don't want Eve to be like a second job", and well, I agree wholeheartedly.

[Shintoko Akahoshi]

So you're saying "I want to pvp in what are the most expensive ships in the game, but I don't want to have to afford them?"

Ignore everything I said, then. I personally love frigate and interceptor pvp. It's my favorite. Despite having a 10 year old character with the skills and wallet to fly anything (well, no capital ship skills, but that's because I simply don't care about flying cap ships). I'll pvp in cruisers if it's needed, or BC or BS, HACS or Recons, but I really don't care for the combat as much. Trundle in, fire up my mods, wait to see if my ship will pop before the other person's ship. The higher price of the ships maybe gives the combat a little wallet-risking frisson, but it's nothing compared to (in my mind) the thrill of screaming into combat in something like a T2-fitted Breacher and having it all come down to split-second tactical decisions. But that's just me.

I honestly don't know how to answer your question, then. It sounds like our mutual experience of combat, what we enjoy the most about it, is simply too alien from one another. I could suggest "just fight on Sisi", but I suspect you want your fights to mean something. I guess all I can say to you, and I say it without an ounce of snark or ill-will, is "Good luck, I'd hate to be in your position."