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[Katrina Oniseki]

Modern Caldari might be different, but for some reason the Caldari are written to have not sociologically evolved from their Stone Age. Who knows why.

In fact, it's quite easy to identify some major changes in Caldari history in PF. Simply because Caldari don't conform to our (post-)modern inclination and sensitivities to what we consider as 'sociologically evolved' doesn't mean they didn't change from the social order of their Stone Age. The problem here is the use of 'evolved' in a normative sense and presupposing that everything should be measured by our standards.

This. Thank you.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

my thought towards an in character explanation for it was that when a woman was pregnant it be cutesy/flattering/etc to refer to her in the plural, (her+child), and it just evolved from that.

That would work. I normally just shrug and say "Lol-Lonetrek."

[orange]

-guri = Gangmember/Criminal

When I as Dex use(d) -guri in conversations with characters like Aria or Kyoko, my intent is (was) to not portray them as outside the community of the Caldari, but as a naughty aspect of the Caldari whole.  I would propose that foreign criminals, like all foreigners, are called Jaijii (by both -haan and -guri).

[Pieter Tuulinen]

Guri are... Well, they're not jaijii I agree.

Canon seems sort of a little unclear on how reviled they are by the State. I guess the corporations dislike them intensely and the Navy seems to hate them too - but how does the average Joee-haan on the street feel about them?

[Lyn Farel]

Depends of the background of the Joe-haan, but most likely reviled as the example of what could become of them if they slip between the cracks.

[Lithium Flower]

-haan = Citizen (male)
-haani = Citizen (female)

I'm part of Stitcher's hipster lonetrek camp on how Napanii should be, wherein Haan is gender neutral and singular, and haani is plural, with the reasoning that a society like the caldari state doesn't seem like one that would place emphasis on gender in that regard.

From what I know, the literal meaning of these suffixes is "Comrade" as official honorific. And when you are not sure about the gender, you use "-haani" for both males and females.

[Stitcher]

The history of it is that Napanii was invented to service the need for a lingua franca in the newly-formed State. It's a constructed language, in other words. The thing to remember about constructed languages is that they use consistent and rigid rules for things like pluralization and so on. In English we have oddities like "sheep/sheep", "mouse/mice" and "goose/geese" because the language was mashed together by common usage over centuries and has loaned both words and grammar from foreign dialects. If English were a constructed, consistent language then the plurals would me "Sheeps", "Mouses" and "Gooses"

"-haan" literally just means "citizen". It's a gender-neutral term by definition. The English equivalent to the feminine "haani" would be "citizeness" which is an absurd, divisive construct which serves only to suggest that men and women are different kinds of citizen. That's not in keeping with how I think of Caldari attitudes.

Remember, the whole "-haan" thing was inspired by the Japanese "-san" tradition, which itself is gender-neutral.

The correct pluralizations for all Napanii nouns and verbs is actually -t/-et/-at/-ut. So the plural term "citizens" would be "Haanat"

"-i" is the stem for infinitive expression and present action. Applying it to "haan" results in the term you use when referring to citizenry in an abstract or objectified way.

"I am a citizen" = "Nei haani
"This citizen" = "Hanta haani"
"Those citizens" = "Soyi haanat"
"We citizens" = "Kiriit haanat"
"All citizens of the Caldari State" = "Haanaten Caldarin Vaktikun"

So in fact, "haani" when used to refer to a woman treats her as an object rather than as a person. Which suggests a rather more sinister explanation than the cutesy "you're pregnant! I'm going to start calling you citizens-plural now."

[Vieve]

The history of it is that Napanii was invented to service the need for a lingua franca in the newly-formed State. It's a constructed language, in other words. The thing to remember about constructed languages is that they use consistent and rigid rules for things like pluralization and so on. In English we have oddities like "sheep/sheep", "mouse/mice" and "goose/geese" because the language was mashed together by common usage over centuries and has loaned both words and grammar from foreign dialects. If English were a constructed, consistent language then the plurals would me "Sheeps", "Mouses" and "Gooses"

"-haan" literally just means "citizen". It's a gender-neutral term by definition. The English equivalent would be "citizeness" which is an absurd, divisive construct which serves only to suggest that men and women are different kinds of citizen. That's not in keeping with how I think of Caldari attitudes.

I've been treating "-haani" as a gender-based construct quirk that slipped in the common use back door from old Caldari-Federation language (likely a flavor of Gallente) mashups. 

[Anslol]

Question. When I brought up the possibility of expanding napanii, it was met with criticism saying that anything added would not be napanii. However, the original person who made it is...well MIA.

Why can we not work on an agreeable expansion to the primer without the original creator's input? Why must he have the final say? Why can we not make it a living document and language and, as players, continue to further enrich it?

Not trying to be snippy/annoying, I'm just wondering what everyone's opinion is re: linguistic expansion.

[Stitcher]

I'm in favour. I've found that it's missing some important words, and is inconsistent to boot. It's pure fanon, we have a perfect right to muck around with it.

[Lyn Farel]

Question. When I brought up the possibility of expanding napanii, it was met with criticism saying that anything added would not be napanii. However, the original person who made it is...well MIA.

Why can we not work on an agreeable expansion to the primer without the original creator's input? Why must he have the final say? Why can we not make it a living document and language and, as players, continue to further enrich it?

Not trying to be snippy/annoying, I'm just wondering what everyone's opinion is re: linguistic expansion.

Was Napanii his thing and/or copyrighted or something ?

My opinion about some interpretations of Napanii is well known though.

[Saede Riordan]

I'm in favour. I've found that it's missing some important words, and is inconsistent to boot. It's pure fanon, we have a perfect right to muck around with it.

I agree with Stitcher definitely.

[Katrina Oniseki]

The problem with multiple interpretations of Napanii is that the Primer states that Napanii is IC used explicitly to overcome dialect issues. This means that it does not change from region to region, does not have multiple versions, and is highly formalized. It's a necessary inflexibility so that somebody with a Lonetrek accent can't butcher the words or meanings, so that somebody from Black Rise can still understand him. It also means that we all have to agree on one version of it, because "-haani" can't mean three different things. It has to mean one thing alone.

Maybe that's not what Herko intended, and maybe he didn't add that to the Primer. Not sure. But it's worth noting it.

[Anslol]

I understand the issue with the dialect thing. But can't that be bypassed by just developing and agreeing on words to help complete sentences? The thing needs more verbs, adjectives, adverbs, etc. I mean it's impossible to write a single sentence from my post in napanii without missing words. I've tried to have Anslo speak it in such a way that a conversation could be had with it. But as the thing is now, it's not really feasible.

I dunno. Personally, I'm for expanding the thing in a slow, logical, step by step process. IF it is to be expanded, this isn't a 2 week project kinda thing.

[Saede Riordan]

I think there may be some desire to avoid taking the language past the level of it being a 'flavour'. We don't want to make there be so much to it that new Caldari RPers are overwhelmed and can't interact.

The problem with multiple interpretations of Napanii is that the Primer states that Napanii is IC used explicitly to overcome dialect issues. This means that it does not change from region to region, does not have multiple versions, and is highly formalized. It's a necessary inflexibility so that somebody with a Lonetrek accent can't butcher the words or meanings, so that somebody from Black Rise can still understand him. It also means that we all have to agree on one version of it, because "-haani" can't mean three different things. It has to mean one thing alone.

I would have to ask then, what's to stop the language from mutating over time anyway, as is the fate of all languages? It would seem to me that the only languages that don't change over time are the ones presently in the process of dying out. Language is never static, never fixed. "-haani" clearly does mean three different things now. People have made it mean different things by imparting our own varied meanings on it. That's how language works.