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[Louella Dougans]

Saw a curious thing while looking at Saint Tetrimon's article on the evelopedia.

"Inire Ardishapur was born to the Ardishapur Family in 21346 AD"
"In 21403 AD, Inire's mother passed away from complications with another childbirth"

That's 57 years later. And Inire's mother had several miscarriages before Inire. So... maybe 60+ years, at a minimum, of reproductive opportunity, compared to ~25 for modern day women.

And consider too, that this was the Ardishapur family, the most religiously conservative, and thus, the least likely to be using weird wibbly reproductive medical technologies.

So, True Amarr women, unlike many others in New Eden, have many decades in which to have children.

And so, someone being the 15th, or even 30th son of someone, may not be too far fetched.

[Karmilla Strife]

Interesting, though I disagree about Ardishapur family being less likely to use medical technologies. I was under the impression that all the Heir families used life-extending technologies such as 'sacred' implants.

[Silas Vitalia]

All of the Amarr nobility use quite a bit of life-extending cyberization.  Ardishapur has an incredibly fancy robot hand don't forget


Now someone being kept alive with machines for a few hundred years, I'm not sure how fit they would be for pregnancy.... *shrug*

[Louella Dougans]

I figured that while the Ardishapurs would use cyberimplants as much as other Heir Families would, they'd tend to shy away from reproductive technologies. Genetic manipulation for example.

[Shintoko Akahoshi]

I don't necessarily buy that. The Godflesh taboo applies to cloning among the nobility, for instance. That the extremely conservative Amarr have had time to develop a formalized cloning taboo implies that they've been aware of the technology for a very long time. And what is cloning, after all, other than extremely sophisticated biomanipulation? The various types of vitoc (and their toxin) also fall into this category.

My suspicion is that the Amarr probably embrace pretty much any form of medicine, resulting in extremely long lifespans even without the use of cybertechnology. They revere their elderly, who seem to be typically quite vigorous, implying that they retain their health throughout their long lives.

[Makkal]

Cyberization and genetic manipulation are new and strange technologies for us. For the Amarr they're thousands of years old. They're no more likely to see reproductive technologies as 'wibbly' than a modern religious person is likely to view a doctor washing their hands with an antibiotic soap as 'wibbly.'

The Godflesh doctrine is political. Holders, Heirs, and Emperors could live a thousand years if they were allowed to do so, and the people below them likely decided that wasn't going to happen.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Cloning is, actually, not that very sophisticated as a process. The Vitoc-Vitoxin system is incerdibly more complex.

The doctrine of Sacred Flesh itself is only saying that royal flesh is sacred, the cloning taboo is thus only pertaining to those of royal linage, especially the Emperor and the heirs and then the members of the royal houses. This does by no means include all nobility.

I agree with Makkal: The doctrine of Sacred Flesh seems indeed stemming from an ethic/political motivation. It's ensuring the regular and and untroubled succession of one Emperor by another and thus seems to be a means to ensure minimal necessary change within the Empire to keep it stable overall.

[Samira Kernher]

The doctrine of Sacred Flesh itself is only saying that royal flesh is sacred, the cloning taboo is thus only pertaining to those of royal linage, especially the Emperor and the heirs and then the members of the royal houses. This does by no means include all nobility.

As a law, it applies only to royalty. As a taboo, it applies to more social classes.

"The Amarr have a mixed view on cloning, with the doctrine of Sacred Flesh prohibiting it for royalty. Many members of the clergy and nobility also adhere to the ideals of Sacred Flesh, though violation of it among these segments of society is not considered a religious crime as it is among royals." - Death, EVElopedia

That's where the basis for Samira's beliefs come from.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Well, it only 'applies' to those that want it to outside of royalty. vOv

[Mithfindel]

Since becoming a Heir does not require being immediately family to the previous Heir (though assumably most new Heirs are chosen from close family) it is possible that the higher-up Holders may have aspirations of their playthings young promising nobles joining a royal lineage by marriage or possibly by adoption. This would assumably require the Holder to follow the Sacred Flesh on not leaving a black mark on the future descendants background. Of course, some may also have religious reasons on trying not to be cloned. Or religious reasons to embrace cloning, though these are likely heterodox.

Approaching the squick territory, there are thousands of cells that could be eggs in women, so even without stem cell therapy, so if the individual is healthy, I assume it would be possible to control the hormonal balance (for example, via medical implant) to extend the number reproductive years. This might be possible even today, which would leave me to believe that it is certainly possible with EVE's "fantasy science".

[Lyn Farel]

All of the Amarr nobility use quite a bit of life-extending cyberization.  Ardishapur has an incredibly fancy robot hand don't forget


Now someone being kept alive with machines for a few hundred years, I'm not sure how fit they would be for pregnancy.... *shrug*

The same as today. Extending life does not extend the total amount of FIXED ovaries to start with and biological mechanisms behind reproductivity cessation. You can probably tweak people to negate a little longer menopause, but you will definitely need more than that to bypass the initial number of ovaries.

So, it would means it is either an evolution step or either an artificial treatment.

I don't necessarily buy that. The Godflesh taboo applies to cloning among the nobility, for instance. That the extremely conservative Amarr have had time to develop a formalized cloning taboo implies that they've been aware of the technology for a very long time. And what is cloning, after all, other than extremely sophisticated biomanipulation? The various types of vitoc (and their toxin) also fall into this category.

My suspicion is that the Amarr probably embrace pretty much any form of medicine, resulting in extremely long lifespans even without the use of cybertechnology. They revere their elderly, who seem to be typically quite vigorous, implying that they retain their health throughout their long lives.

If the Amarr (try to) live over such long lifespans, that's precisely because of the godflesh taboo. If you can't clone, better to live the longest possible. I wouldnt be surprised to see the Amarr obsessed with other forms of physical immortality.

[Samira Kernher]

If the Amarr (try to) live over such long lifespans, that's precisely because of the godflesh taboo. If you can't clone, better to live the longest possible. I wouldnt be surprised to see the Amarr obsessed with other forms of physical immortality.

Mhm. Is how I play it on Samira. Is completely opposed to cloning, believes it should be outright abolished (and hates herself for being one), but is a very strong proponent of research into life extension (whether it be genetic modification or cybernetics).

[Ciarente]

The same as today. Extending life does not extend the total amount of FIXED ovaries to start with and biological mechanisms behind reproductivity cessation. You can probably tweak people to negate a little longer menopause, but you will definitely need more than that to bypass the initial number of ovaries.

So, it would means it is either an evolution step or either an artificial treatment.

It's worth remembering that women's reproductive limits are not solely related to ovum. In fact, older women seeking to have biological children today can try to do so by donating eggs for younger women to carry.

[Karmilla Strife]

It would not take genetic modification or cloning to extend reproductive age. The human ovary has a million or so Oocytes. Only about 500 or so ever ovulate. Bypassing the initial number isn't the theoretical problem.  They used cellular regenerative technology on Articio Kor-Azor when he was being cut up for being bad. So that sort of technology is allowable for heirs. I imagine that a science fiction blend of similar regenerative technologies and hormone treatments could be involved and could be perfectly acceptable.

[Louella Dougans]

it's also worth pointing out that this was Amarr medical tech as it existed some ~2000 years before current, during the reign of the Mad Emperor.

Unsure about when the Sacred Flesh doctrine fits into that.