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The Sani Sabik sectarian law-enforcement organization is called the Bleeders, and is a combination of priests and policemen? (The Burning Life, p. 18)

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Author Topic: The Colelie/Broteau arc  (Read 8439 times)

Galen Darksmith

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Re: The Colelie/Broteau arc
« Reply #45 on: 09 Jul 2013, 11:56 »

Oh, and Galen. I think Evanda made it clear at the time that we held CAIN, at least in part, responsible for Ullia Hnolku's death and if we could hurt you, we would. And we weren't working with the Black Rabbits, they turned up because you had come and you were a favourite chew-toy.

Oh, absolutely.  That was my point: despite both CAIN and EM representing sovereign states that were not at war, EM launched a grudge attack on a State operation CAIN was involved in because of Hnolku.  That's why Galen wasn't taken aback by the Republic attacking the Federation due to a grudge, though the scale of the attack may have.

Come to think of it...I may be confused since I was away from the game for some time, but isn't CCP Falcon Verone?  Given that VETO also joined in that war, that whole thing may have provided inspiration for this arc on some level.  Namely, that the Minmatar emphasize loyalty based on honor and grudges, as opposed to law and treaties.

Lyn, we've been promised in the Live Events forum that  the pace will slow down, but the arc is still ongoing.  It makes me sad too, this had a perfect whole "tense political situation" vibe that's damped by a slower pace.  I'm trying to pretend this is all happening much faster than it really is, but...yeah, I want more :(

Grudge attack? Granted my memory of things might be a tad hazy but what I recall is CAIN slapping us with a wardec having moved assets to the Republic to prosecute it with. I think the Rabbits noticed that happening unless I am mistaken.

Was that in response to a previous action then? It may well have been but you where on our red list and, therefore, legitimate targets. Regardless of any formal tensions between the polities we both have interests in.

EM blew up a lolecmburst fit blackbird (long story) while CAIN was assisting a Caldari Navy operation (live event, the end of the BoF arc, as memory serves).  CAIN basically said "compensate us for that ship, or it's war."  EM refused (to CAIN's delight), wardec went down, pirates decced, and that's how the war began.  So yeah, previous action.

I'm not sure what EM's red list has to do with anything.  I'm not saying it was a surprise attack, if that's what you think I mean.  If EM had attacked a random CAIN patrol in lowsec, I'd agree that would be more grey area since they could claim to not mean any offense to the Caldari State.  Harder to claim that when you're trying to foil a CN operation, though.

I also see the current attitude mirrored in EM's approach to handling the pirates.  EM could have told CAIN "Look, you've brought vermin into our home.  We'll have this war, but first you help us clean up the dirt you tracked in."  Or, could have worked a ceasefire while both entities fought the pirates separately.  Or, just gone kamikaze and fought everyone.  They route they took instead was to work with the pirates against CAIN because CAIN was the one they had the biggest problem with.  I'm not saying this is bad, just that it shows that "law and order" was not as high a priority as "honor and revenge." 
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Svetlana Scarlet

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Re: The Colelie/Broteau arc
« Reply #46 on: 09 Jul 2013, 15:39 »

CAIN fought EM a few times that I can remember; one was when we got drawn in to a war between EM and one of the Amarr corps because Acheron threw in with EM and wouldn't butt out when we demanded they do so. The other was a retaliatory war after they helped the Brothers of Freedom escape (along with Star Fraction). When we moved into the Republic to pursue the fighting, they joined up with the Black Rabbits and Veto, among others. I think that's the story Evanda wrote up for the True Stories of Eve.
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Arnulf Ogunkoya

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Re: The Colelie/Broteau arc
« Reply #47 on: 09 Jul 2013, 17:24 »

CAIN fought EM a few times that I can remember; one was when we got drawn in to a war between EM and one of the Amarr corps because Acheron threw in with EM and wouldn't butt out when we demanded they do so. The other was a retaliatory war after they helped the Brothers of Freedom escape (along with Star Fraction). When we moved into the Republic to pursue the fighting, they joined up with the Black Rabbits and Veto, among others. I think that's the story Evanda wrote up for the True Stories of Eve.

Ah yes. I remember now. And I'd tend to agree with you Galen. EM is a nationalist outfit. What is perceived to be good for the Republic is what is important. Most of the time that does, in fact, mean killing pirates. But only when they make a nuisance of themselves inside Minmatar space. This is a distinction I wish more of them would pick up on but a lot of what passes for pirate these days doesn't really have the grey matter to get past the purely tactical.

And, as you will recall from Eva's account. We weren't working with them. We where trying to contain them & direct them while we got on with killing you.
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Svetlana Scarlet

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Re: The Colelie/Broteau arc
« Reply #48 on: 09 Jul 2013, 17:31 »

And, as you will recall from Eva's account. We weren't working with them. We where trying to contain them & direct them while we got on with killing you.

Mmmmhrm. If you say so...
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Arnulf Ogunkoya

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Re: The Colelie/Broteau arc
« Reply #49 on: 09 Jul 2013, 17:40 »

And, as you will recall from Eva's account. We weren't working with them. We where trying to contain them & direct them while we got on with killing you.

Mmmmhrm. If you say so...

I do. It's a shame I know. If us core nation types could work past our differences we could do so many things. For one brief moment I thought it might happen when Incursions started. Pity. It would've been an interesting complication.

But even back then the State was the enemy. The number of Caldari hulls you had to blow up in missions told you that much.

The Yulai Guard were puzzled when we set them red for actively assisting CVA. "But pirates are real bad people and slaves are just imaginary." I think you can imagine how well that logic was received.
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Vieve

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Re: The Colelie/Broteau arc
« Reply #50 on: 10 Jul 2013, 07:17 »

CAIN fought EM a few times that I can remember; one was when we got drawn in to a war between EM and one of the Amarr corps because Acheron threw in with EM and wouldn't butt out when we demanded they do so.

If I remember right, the Amarr corp was PIE.  Granted, my memory's fuzzy, since Vieve was put under house arrest (in a sense)1 not too long after that war started, so all I got to do is harass Kaazzi in Rens for a few nights.

1Yeah, for some crazy thing about putting the alliance with EM at risk and maybe being a sleeper Caldari agent.  Madness, I tell you.
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Galen Darksmith

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Re: The Colelie/Broteau arc
« Reply #51 on: 10 Jul 2013, 08:33 »

CAIN fought EM a few times that I can remember; one was when we got drawn in to a war between EM and one of the Amarr corps because Acheron threw in with EM and wouldn't butt out when we demanded they do so. The other was a retaliatory war after they helped the Brothers of Freedom escape (along with Star Fraction). When we moved into the Republic to pursue the fighting, they joined up with the Black Rabbits and Veto, among others. I think that's the story Evanda wrote up for the True Stories of Eve.

Did they get away?  I remember that storyline ending with the death of the BoF leader in a way that kind of annoyed everyone involved due to some miscommunication between the EM/SF side and the AURORA actor.
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Svetlana Scarlet

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Re: The Colelie/Broteau arc
« Reply #52 on: 10 Jul 2013, 11:10 »

Did they get away?  I remember that storyline ending with the death of the BoF leader in a way that kind of annoyed everyone involved due to some miscommunication between the EM/SF side and the AURORA actor.

Pretty sure.
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Katrina Oniseki

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Re: The Colelie/Broteau arc
« Reply #53 on: 11 Aug 2013, 20:03 »

It's a shame I know. If us core nation types could work past our differences we could do so many things. For one brief moment I thought it might happen when Incursions started. Pity. It would've been an interesting complication.

It's become apparent to me that many roleplayers don't want that. Maybe even most don't want that.

People want EVE to be a fighting game, not a diplomacy game.

Galen Darksmith

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Re: The Colelie/Broteau arc
« Reply #54 on: 11 Aug 2013, 22:48 »

I would disagree with that assessment, at least for EVE as a whole.  0.0 politics pretty much revolve entirely around diplomacy and your ability to pull enough blues around you that the other mass of blues can't just steamroll you into the pavement.

For RPers though...I don't see a practical way for players to enact diplomacy on their empires behalf, particularly not if CCP doesn't want to worry about showing favoritism.  It pretty much has to be determined by CCP at any given point: If your faction says you are at war, you go to war.  If they say you're at peace, you're buddies with the other faction.  There's room for nuance, but at the end of the day the diplomacy game has to revolve around "How do we interpet our faction's current policies?", because players will never be the ones setting those policies.
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Karmilla Strife

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Re: The Colelie/Broteau arc
« Reply #55 on: 12 Aug 2013, 02:26 »

0.0 politics also revolve around fighting
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Katrina Oniseki

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Re: The Colelie/Broteau arc
« Reply #56 on: 12 Aug 2013, 11:44 »

I was speaking more on the topic of moderates of a faction versus ultraloyalists.

U-Loyalists: "Hugglefest is bad, conflict is best, etc."
Moderates: "Drama is bad, diplomacy is best, etc."

Though on second thought, the pendulum seems to swing back and forth on which group is more popular at a given time. Mostly depends on if CCP is featuring a diplomatic storyline or a war storyline. During the negotiations for peaceful administration of Caldari Prime, Ishukone loyalists and Gallente "Doves" saw a surge of player popularity. During the Colelie attack, both Gallente "Hawks" and Minmatar sabre-rattlers saw an increase in popularity.

It could be said that maybe it's not a popularity increase, but rather certain stories bring their relevant faction and sub-faction loyalists out of the woodwork and into the public spotlight.

Gesakaarin

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Re: The Colelie/Broteau arc
« Reply #57 on: 13 Aug 2013, 01:48 »

I would disagree with that assessment, at least for EVE as a whole.  0.0 politics pretty much revolve entirely around diplomacy and your ability to pull enough blues around you that the other mass of blues can't just steamroll you into the pavement.

For RPers though...I don't see a practical way for players to enact diplomacy on their empires behalf, particularly not if CCP doesn't want to worry about showing favoritism.  It pretty much has to be determined by CCP at any given point: If your faction says you are at war, you go to war.  If they say you're at peace, you're buddies with the other faction.  There's room for nuance, but at the end of the day the diplomacy game has to revolve around "How do we interpet our faction's current policies?", because players will never be the ones setting those policies.

I always thought the diplomacy game in RP was played out by having individual or organizational agendas and then seeking to pursue them.

I don't feel the need for CCP to hold my hand in constructing my own agendas for my characters and the organizations they are part of and then letting them play out and which remain consistent with the fiction. To me the fiction exists to create the framework for specific worldviews/ideologies/causes and the RP is the action and reaction among other groups in the game caused by them -- even if they don't consider themselves, "Roleplayers".

To me, all of Eve is RP because it's never been so much about the fictional interpersonal feels one can get but the interplay of differing causes and goals. A bunch of guys shooting it up in nullsec for power, territory, resources or just killmails is just as much roleplaying as capsuleers who are "Loyalists" because they're consistently behaving as a bunch of independent capsuleers who have their own goals.

So if people find fault in being unable to dictate what they think a chosen faction should or should not do then that's their own problem to me. For myself, I know the fictional agendas and worldviews of my own characters and their organizations so I'm more than able to react accordingly and consistently to them when something happens in the game.
« Last Edit: 13 Aug 2013, 01:50 by Gesakaarin »
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Anslol

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Re: The Colelie/Broteau arc
« Reply #58 on: 13 Aug 2013, 06:51 »

This arc gave me some reason to make Anslo even more crazy and unstable so...I can't complain there. However, I get where others are coming from. This shouldn't just end at the fleet fight, something else has to happen in game aside from the fluff press releases.
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Caellach Marellus

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Re: The Colelie/Broteau arc
« Reply #59 on: 13 Aug 2013, 12:36 »

Annoyingly this arc has shifted Caellach away from CONCORD neutral to pro Federal, mainly because of the way they've conducted themselves in his eyes, and underlying irks towards the Republic that have festered for some time and now rise up to the surface.

The lack of Blaque or Roden utterly fucking this one up has made it hard for him to not defend his point of origin.
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