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[Galen Darksmith]

She used to support the Republic pretty heavily - to the extent that she flew with E.M. back before FW happened - and the whole thing seemed so out of character for them.

Were you with them during their war with CAIN?  Galen hasn't been too surprised by EM's recent actions, having seen them working with pirates and Sansha.  As far as he's been able to tell, they've never put too much stock in law or treaties.

I don't know that wanting some kind of consequences for Colelie necessarily puts Shin in the hawk camp by itself.  There's plenty  room between "BURN THEM ALL THE DIRTY TRAITORS" and, well, how the Federation has been acting.  I think an end to the treaty and/or aid reduction is a pretty moderate response considering the preceding events.

[Tabor Murn]

OOCly, I wish this damn arc was over with. It's a pain in the ass and only worth the bits of lore we've been able to glean from the articles. (Like recently, most Minmatar, or at least Sebbies, cremate their dead) It's become an IC clusterfuck, that is really not that big of a deal, but because we haven't had news for a long time, it's blown out of proportion.  I feel that couple dozen dreads dying is noteworthy, but not cause for months of drama and debate.

It would really, really help. If we could get some sort of indication as to why Republic loyalists are supposed to consider this sort of behaviour reasonable.

At least most of the other groups have some rationale behind their more cranky actions.

Originally I read this as. "Please Republic Loyalists, present a reason why this is reasonable." Re-reading I think I was originally wrong, but here's my response anyway.

My character has been pretty quiet about this, because it's not exactly a popular outlook in EM or with some characters close to him. Tabor thinks the Republic reaction to the attack in Caille on Midular is perfectly reasonable. Colelie wasn't an invasion, but it did show the Gallente how serious the situation is "to us."

In RPing this I have deliberately tried to divorce my opinions on international political theory, and instead tried to fathom what a "Tribal" mindset would be. My own limited experience is with the Pashtun, who have very specific codes of behavior, especially where vengeance and tribal honor are involved. I embrace the idea that all interaction with outside groups is "us vs. them." and by default, they are badguys. If the badguys do anything against us, the appropriate response is retaliation. Always. Even if it causes our group more harm in the long run, Tribal Honor is preserved.

Tabor thinks the results of the Broteau arc are unfortunate, but he's very proud of all involved in the actual conflict. That applies to both sides of the conflict interestingly enough. The fact that many Gallente have banded together on "their side" and risen up in collective uproar against Colelie makes him consider them more of a "people" than before this incident. In his mind the Gallente are adapting a very "tribal" mindset in their response, and while he may not agree with them, Tabor finds it easier to understand them now. (or so he thinks.)


TL:DR to quote Sepultura:

Who Are You To Criticize
To Judge And Burn The Tribes
The World Will Be Extinct
And Your Flesh Will Rot With Mine

[Samira Kernher]

My character has been pretty quiet about this, because it's not exactly a popular outlook in EM or with some characters close to him. Tabor thinks the Republic reaction to the attack in Caille on Midular is perfectly reasonable. Colelie wasn't an invasion, but it did show the Gallente how serious the situation is "to us."

This is the way I've seen it, too. A lot of people have considered it an incompetent attack much like Kador's, but knowing the way the Matari are I think it's much more reasonable to assume that it was meant deliberately to be a show of force. It's not the first time they've done this. Before they attacked CONCORD, they first appeared in a massive fleet just as a show of force before jumping out.

I think that was very much what they were doing here. It's their modus operandi. Actually extracting Broteau was probably not expected nor planned, and getting into an actual battle was probably not expected nor planned. What they were probably hoping for was to converge on some important Federal core world location, show off their might a bit, and then withdraw back to the Republic to let the Federation think about what just happened (again, like the Yulai incident). They probably weren't expecting to be stopped halfway by a Federal dread fleet. In the Yulai incident, CONCORD got caught completely offguard, which was why the demonstration was so potent. Federation on the other hand has a great intelligence network and so had early warning and were thus able to prepare a counterfleet ahead of the Minmatar.

Once the dreads appeared, the Republic fleet needed to come up with a new strategy. Either they could turn around and go home with their tail between their legs, or they could maintain their honor and show how big their balls were by opening fire despite full knowledge that it would be a loss. They did the latter. This is, again, standard for the Matari. From the description of the Yulai Graveyard beacon: "This ship graveyard marks the site of perhaps the boldest—or barbaric—military feat in the recorded history of EVE. It was here where CONCORD, the protectorate of interstellar travel, was attacked preemptively by a Minmatar Elder armada. With the Thukker Tribe fighting at their side, the Minmatars fought with a fury not seen since the Rebellion, even sacrificing their own ships to accomplish their mission."

So yeah, knowing Matari culture, I'd say it was perfectly reasonable and well in-line with their usual actions. The Republic was there to demonstrate loudly and aggressively to the Federation that it would not be ignored. Extracting Broteau wasn't the goal; making a statement was. That's the kind of Republic I really like to see.

[Tabor Murn]

Samira's pretty much got my point, the difference was scale between Colelie and the TEA invasion. Up until the "we need a new strategy" bit, Samira had my view of the plan.

The Republic didn't go to Colelie to win. They went with the express purpose of either getting what they wanted, or giving the Fed a bloody nose. It wasn't bad enough to ruin the treaty, but it was enough to say, "we're independent, we actually need a bit of diplomatic care."

The Federation is more sensitive to military losses than the Republic, this is reflected in all the Drone stuff, and very well RP'd in the current thread. So the Republic said, "a dozen dreads, to us, are worthless compared to our ideals of vengeance." The fed continued to condemn the actions, but didn't escalate, and ultimately handed the republic the killer and tried to go apologize by going to Midular's funeral en masse.

As I see it, the relationship between the two factions are tense, but they are still allies. They just have a better definition of where each other draws moral lines now.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

Tabor, Samira. I can see what you are getting at & think you are mostly correct.

However that still makes the venue confusing. Why that system? Unless they figured jumping dreads into an actual Fed core system might set off a real war?

As to my earlier post. I was wishing that our NPC leaders would be a bit more forthcoming about the thinking behind their actions. It's difficult to figure what a mainstream Minmatar view is when we have so little to go on.

Oh, and Galen. I think Evanda made it clear at the time that we held CAIN, at least in part, responsible for Ullia Hnolku's death and if we could hurt you, we would. And we weren't working with the Black Rabbits, they turned up because you had come and you were a favourite chew-toy.

[Tabor Murn]

I think the Republic fleet expected one of two things. Either they'd slowly slowboat their show of force to the Fed supreme court and they'd get the RSS's criminal. Or.... They'd provoke a small scale fight one the borders and they'd make the seriousness of their complaints known through bloodshed.

Minmatar are the most populous people in the cluster. Loss of crew means less to them. Also their very existence is attributed to acts of collective resistance and defiance. Quite simply: the Fed saying "No Broteau is a Federal case" was nothing more than tailor-made troll bait to make most of the Republic jump for the chance of cheap retribution.

Either way Tabor is proud that some capsuleers were willing to face off against an Ally in the name of tribal honor.

[Ava Starfire]

I hate everything about this arc.

Ok. CCP wants the Minnies to be more "grimdark". Fine. Whatever.

You do so by killing the one person in PF who isnt a total psycho and by making the Minmatar once again look utterly, amazingly inept and incompetent. Sigh. What the hell?
The whole arc is just so, so forced, it... feels very forced? And bad?

I am all for good PF tidbits (like the funeral) or depictions of Tribal vengeance and honor customs, but this is just way, way too much. "Lets whelp a couple hundred thousand lives and tens of billions of isk our brokeass nation doesnt have to prove a statement".

Happy as I am to get a sebiestor centered bit of PF... this was pretty bad.

[Shintoko Akahoshi]

I mainly think the bad-ness is mostly related to the sparseness of the arc. It's been going on for a couple of months, and there have only been a handful of "official" actions or responses.

The battle itself felt alright - it was the second time the Republic had brought a military force to rattle a sword at the Federation, and it feels like this time just went south fairly organically. Afterwards, though, there was nothing? Nothing from the Federation? Nothing from the Republic? Not a word from Shakor? Tribal leaders defending the actions in Colelie? Tribal leaders who feel that Shakor is going to far and speak up about it?

The only really disappointing thing about it, in my opinion, is that it has the potential to be so good! A major international incident between two close allies? I fucking salivate over the thought!

In any case, there is a thread discussing it in the Eve-O forums, and at least Falcon is responding there a bit. Not a bad idea to express your concerns there: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=254850&find=unread

[Ava Starfire]

I will. I talked to Falcon about it once, and I think I offended him by saying I didnt like it. I know he puts a lot into these arcs, and I am glad he does it.

This one just didnt go so well, I dont think. Some people like it. I dont.

[Myyona]

Sorry yo hear, because I like this arc a lot. Even though it meant the death of my favorite Eve fictional character.

The discussions are great and a new ways of character alignment/belief have emerged on both Federal and Republic sides. I also see a lot of new faces (alts perhaps, but does not matter to me) getting involved in this.

Sadly, my characters are not much involved themselves due to not having any greater interests at stake. But the few lines I have managed to provide, have been great for their characterization too.

[Ava Starfire]

Tabor thinks the Republic reaction to the attack in Caille on Midular is perfectly reasonable. Colelie wasn't an invasion, but it did show the Gallente how serious the situation is "to us."

I embrace the idea that all interaction with outside groups is "us vs. them." and by default, they are badguys. If the badguys do anything against us, the appropriate response is retaliation. Always. Even if it causes our group more harm in the long run, Tribal Honor is preserved.

In spite of how much i hate this arc, this is quite true.

Too bad 99% of eve players think "Tribal society" means "People smoking peyote and dancing around fires" so it wont change much.

[Lyn Farel]

I have always been mitigated on this arc.

The deal between the Fed and the Republic is nice and really intriguing.

The death of Midular is one of the most disappointing thing I have had to experience lore wise. TEA put aside, maybe.

The lack of ensuing consequences is also disappointing. It is starting to break the suspension of disbelief, since there HAS to be consequences of all of this coming up. I guess they are busy on other things though, which is understandable.

[Galen Darksmith]

Oh, and Galen. I think Evanda made it clear at the time that we held CAIN, at least in part, responsible for Ullia Hnolku's death and if we could hurt you, we would. And we weren't working with the Black Rabbits, they turned up because you had come and you were a favourite chew-toy.

Oh, absolutely.  That was my point: despite both CAIN and EM representing sovereign states that were not at war, EM launched a grudge attack on a State operation CAIN was involved in because of Hnolku.  That's why Galen wasn't taken aback by the Republic attacking the Federation due to a grudge, though the scale of the attack may have.

Come to think of it...I may be confused since I was away from the game for some time, but isn't CCP Falcon Verone?  Given that VETO also joined in that war, that whole thing may have provided inspiration for this arc on some level.  Namely, that the Minmatar emphasize loyalty based on honor and grudges, as opposed to law and treaties.

Lyn, we've been promised in the Live Events forum that  the pace will slow down, but the arc is still ongoing.  It makes me sad too, this had a perfect whole "tense political situation" vibe that's damped by a slower pace.  I'm trying to pretend this is all happening much faster than it really is, but...yeah, I want more

[Lyn Farel]

That's not that it makes me sad really. I am not a big fan of live events - in the sense participating - even if I love them for what they bring up and create in terms of RP matter.

I just hope we will hear of the consequences pretty fast. I can understand to see a slower pace, definitely, but cutting the pace right before the conclusions seems... weird. Taking a break between two, sure, but right before the epilogue... ?

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

Oh, and Galen. I think Evanda made it clear at the time that we held CAIN, at least in part, responsible for Ullia Hnolku's death and if we could hurt you, we would. And we weren't working with the Black Rabbits, they turned up because you had come and you were a favourite chew-toy.

Oh, absolutely.  That was my point: despite both CAIN and EM representing sovereign states that were not at war, EM launched a grudge attack on a State operation CAIN was involved in because of Hnolku.  That's why Galen wasn't taken aback by the Republic attacking the Federation due to a grudge, though the scale of the attack may have.

Come to think of it...I may be confused since I was away from the game for some time, but isn't CCP Falcon Verone?  Given that VETO also joined in that war, that whole thing may have provided inspiration for this arc on some level.  Namely, that the Minmatar emphasize loyalty based on honor and grudges, as opposed to law and treaties.

Lyn, we've been promised in the Live Events forum that  the pace will slow down, but the arc is still ongoing.  It makes me sad too, this had a perfect whole "tense political situation" vibe that's damped by a slower pace.  I'm trying to pretend this is all happening much faster than it really is, but...yeah, I want more

Grudge attack? Granted my memory of things might be a tad hazy but what I recall is CAIN slapping us with a wardec having moved assets to the Republic to prosecute it with. I think the Rabbits noticed that happening unless I am mistaken.

Was that in response to a previous action then? It may well have been but you where on our red list and, therefore, legitimate targets. Regardless of any formal tensions between the polities we both have interests in.