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[Ayallah]

• Suicide attacks for the purpose of theft is suicide ganks
• The 'list' is/was supposed to come off as suspected, operations she had taken part in.  From what the feedback is I have removed the numbers leaving it more vauge.  This was done in the intrest of belivable shock and awe and it failed pretty miserably.  I think I can get a better or more desirable view from a list. Originally this was the idea and I think going back wil be the best bet. ^_^
• A lot of the numbers were ment not as she imprisoned 780'000 people on seperate occasions but rather her unit or an operation she was involved in was implicated in that crime.  Much like if the commander of a concentration camp was charged, he would be implicated and charged with all the deaths involved.
• Sometimes genocide/ethnic clensing needs to be deniable.  (read, most of the time.) Cutting colony comms and doing it on the ground leaves a lot more denibility that orbital strikes.
• The whole point of her being an operative of the minmatar republic was that it was 'involuntary' the Republic is known for using their crimminals.
• The question of how she became a capsuleer is a big one, It is meant to be 'under investigation' anomoulous.
• Kameiras training begins at six, I see no reason why operations could not take place during this time.  As far as the brainwashing, I don't see it like that.  Why would the empire cook someones brain etc?  They are born as Kameiras, their loyalty is bred deep, voluntary.  They know the reality of Amarr and are not lied to, thar is what makes them the very most dangerous, they can't be 'melted' if they truly belive.  Any who weren't true belivers would be washed out of the program, used as target holders or even killed by the other children.  To me that is much more dangerous that ignorance and brainwashing.
• It is a fact.  I can fly a very large variation of hulls as samira was kind enough to link.
• 'Combat efficiancy is a kill board statistic, that statistic reflects her agressivness and ineperience.
• The next two I am not going to get into much except to say that is my experience with PTSD and although it may not mesh with the 'hollywood' versions My brothers, my wife and I all have some very similar experiences with variation of course.  This, I can assure you is accurate.
• Arrogance to me is false sense of worth, pride is a assured sense of worth.  Sociopathy has nothing to do with self worth and Kameiras are told they are special and better and are assured of this simply by their own experince.  Fighter jock style, the DNGAF level that can only be attaned by killers

I do apreciate your feedback and I hope I have addressed all of your concerns.  That said there is a difference between constructive criticism and criticism.  I am not sure how a space bio can offend you but you seem to have taken the inaccuracies personally.  Feedback is appreciated, the tone is not.

You don't need all of that for Ayallah to be who she is. It makes her come across as being very unrealistic to go that far. This isn't to say that people can't perform such activities, but that people are not put into those kind of situations that often. Remember, the Empire was at peace until 5 years ago. There simply isn't the kind of opportunity for that kind of wideranging activities.

A common writing tip is: "Less is more". Go through your list, pick the things that are absolutely necessary, and discard the rest. Look into depth, not breadth.

I am not familiar with the term 'Mary Sue' but this is exactly the opposite of the reaction I wanted to come across. 

As far as the Empire being at peace this is exactly the reason why a covert unit or a shock unit would see so much use.  Aside from the world wars there are always  always more cladestine and unethical operations going on int times of 'peace'

As for the less is more I agree with you and wish I had gone with the orginial draft which included none of the pesky numbers.  I tried to go for realism, as a way to give other charcters a point of leveratge and attack but have achieved the opposite I think barring a rewrite that included [8 charges: yc108 genocide on torkam, 18,000 dead | yc108 akervor 'death camps' 17 pow executions] etc...  Unless I rewrite it and give it that level of depth, really let the nature of the crimes unfold I think it is hurting me.  I was against the idea of vauge because I felt it lacked realism but i think I went in the middle and got the worst of both options. =/

Both OOC and IC, I believe that Ayallah is attempting to be the biggest, baddest bad ass that ever assed a big bad. If she can carry that off in game and get other characters to accept her as such, then that's awesome.

I don't know if that's been successful. I'd say Makkal sees her as a competent foot soldier. Ayallah's made some claims that strike Makkal as outlandish.

For one thing, Ayallah has said the Minmatar Republic knew about an Imperial slave raid on a Minmatar world and send her, and only her, to defend it on the ground. This was part of an initiation test where they didn't expect her to live.

Ayallah has also claimed that she could kill Makkal permanently by sabotaging all of her soft-clones and normal cloning facilities, even the ones in IRED HQ in null space.

But like almost everything else, I just have my character react as appropriate. Whether this is 'true' or 'factual' in any larger sense doesn't impact how I RP Makkal.

A lot of this is something that I can use the excuse of 'I am new to this' despite however lame that may seem.  It is not easy certainly to get across the point of the character and from what you have said It seems like I am not portraying her as I would like her to be. 

Trying to be a bad ass:  Not really, more of this is my own personal views of 'HTFU' coming through I think though the numbers mistake seems to have expounded this.  I really don't want Aya to be a chuck norris.  My long term goal is Bruce lee.  I will need to work on this and I think I will be able to portray it better in a story rather than in-game for a number of reasons.

As for the slave raid, It was supposed to be something unexpected.  The republic sent her to assist in the evacuation and the Amarr overwhelmed and conquered.  This was supposed to reflect the nature of the war zone at the time.  and again, I think that this can be chalked up to my own poor RPing

As for the killing of Makkal specifically, Aya would never do that it was more trying to hint at the fact that she had participated in operations of that kind. (posing as a station worker, one of the thousands of crew, supplies shipments etc.)

I hope I have addressed as many concerns as possible and a new draft will be up by tomorrow   Thank you all for your help and advice, more is always welcome!

Also if you are still willing to help me untangle this bitch, please read over my fiction:
http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=4896.0

I would like your iinput and it is always welcome =) don't worry about hurting my feelings,and let me know what I am doing right too
 
-J

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

Ayallah. Mary-Sue is a term from science fiction media fan writing. It describes a character that is better at everything than any of the canon characters and is frequently seen as a writer self-insert. Having seen a fictional description of your character winning, I'd now be interested to see what she is like when she looses.

I am somewhat curious as to how your character broke Kameira conditioning. You seem to be implying that you were captured and put through the Vaklear program. I suppose the people running that might be capable of re-directing her loyalties. You might want to have a chat with Gotti, as his character is an ex Vaklear (not that this is generally known) and is also a product of the HEP.

[Samira Kernher]

Ayallah. Mary-Sue is a term from science fiction media fan writing. It describes a character that is better at everything than any of the canon characters and is frequently seen as a writer self-insert. Having seen a fictional description of your character winning, I'd now be interested to see what she is like when she looses.

Not so much just being better at everything, but being the center of attention as well--having the story revolve around the character in an unrealistic fashion. Over the course of RPing with Ayallah, I've seen traits of Black Hole Sueing and Sympathy Sueing.

Ayallah, I don't want you to take these observations personally. I'm speaking as someone who has had my own issues with Sueing in the past (I used to do Sympathy Sueing, in particular. I've since tried to correct my mistakes, and Samira is a more mature and developed version of my previous failed attempts), so it's something I have experience dealing with.

I am not familiar with the term 'Mary Sue' but this is exactly the opposite of the reaction I wanted to come across.

As far as the Empire being at peace this is exactly the reason why a covert unit or a shock unit would see so much use.  Aside from the world wars there are always  always more cladestine and unethical operations going on int times of 'peace'

There are, but here's the thing: It's not the same unit acting everywhere all at once. There are many units. The way you have it written now, makes it sound like Ayallah was directly present for every single unethical covert operation the Empire has had in the last two decades. That's why it feels unrealistic.

Again, I suggest tightening it up. Instead of breadth, go depth. Identify one or two particularly important events that Ayallah was personally involved with, and build the character around those events. Those events will be plenty horrible and traumatic on their own, you don't need more than a handful, and having too many such incidents actually lessens the impact. A phrase to consider, "One death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic." That's how it feels looking at Ayallah's crime record--statistics, not tragedies. It's like flooding a market. Tighten it up, consolidate it, cut the fat, and focus on a couple of really important issues. By focusing, you will actually increase the emotional impact.

Arrogance to me is false sense of worth, pride is a assured sense of worth.  Sociopathy has nothing to do with self worth and Kameiras are told they are special and better and are assured of this simply by their own experince.

Incorrect, narcissism is one of the identifying characteristics of sociopathy according to the Hare Psychopathy Checklist. I would contend that's exactly why Kameiras are told that they are Chosen... that grandiose sense of self-worth that is drilled into them during their training will make it much easier for them to kill their enemies, as they will view themselves as unstoppable and their enemies as inferior beings.

Kameiras training begins at six, I see no reason why operations could not take place during this time.  As far as the brainwashing, I don't see it like that.  Why would the empire cook someones brain etc?  They are born as Kameiras, their loyalty is bred deep, voluntary.  They know the reality of Amarr and are not lied to, thar is what makes them the very most dangerous, they can't be 'melted' if they truly belive.  Any who weren't true belivers would be washed out of the program, used as target holders or even killed by the other children.  To me that is much more dangerous that ignorance and brainwashing.

That is brainwashing. That's textbook conditioning. And they are lied to. They are told they are Chosen when they are not. Also, you could argue that the religion is itself 'lying', but that's a form of brainwashing that affects the whole of the Empire.

[Lyn Farel]

• Kameiras training begins at six, I see no reason why operations could not take place during this time.  As far as the brainwashing, I don't see it like that.  Why would the empire cook someones brain etc?  They are born as Kameiras, their loyalty is bred deep, voluntary.  They know the reality of Amarr and are not lied to, thar is what makes them the very most dangerous, they can't be 'melted' if they truly belive.  Any who weren't true belivers would be washed out of the program, used as target holders or even killed by the other children.  To me that is much more dangerous that ignorance and brainwashing.

I disagree.

I see Kameiras education exactly the same way Talibans and Al Kaida train their troop soldiers. You will never see one putting into question everything they are told, for the sake of God [Allah].

Some might eventually fall under pressure from torture, or dire/stressful situations since they are still human, but voluntarily turning against their masters after a sudden epiphany ? I don't think so.

In any case, Kameiras are "brainwashed". Actually no, they are not really brainwashed, since brainwashing implies "washing" everything else to return to a clean slate where indoctrination can begin, and Kameiras are indoctrinated starting in their first years, so there is not even washing in the first place. All they have known is God, their masters, and what they were told and how to think. In a way, it's even worse than islamic extremists that sometimes just have an epiphany and go full jihadi terrorists like illuminated zealots.

It's written nowhere that Kameiras are explained calmy and rationally things about religion. In fact, I don't think that they receive any theological education.

Of course it is not impossible for some to fall between the crack and get captured and reindoctrinated by Valklears or whatever. It's just not easy. Have you ever tried to turn someone indoctrinated since his/her first years into believing something without any compromise ? Especially with religion ? One of the only reasons that person would do so, would simply be that he or she somehow falls to some logical, rational, irrefutable proof of what he/she did wrong... And how do you do that, with someone that is to begin with completely impermeable to logic and rationality itself ? How do you tell someone that what the Amarr do is wrong since they strongly believe it's actually right ? Concepts of freedom, humanist or universal rights are as much as alien to a Kameira than slavery and celestial order would be to a die hard Gallente.

I think however that one of the peculiar face of the Kameira is their total devotion to their masters. As long as the master is an embodiment of God (True Amarr or else), the Kameira will see him or  her as the only true voice of God. And whatever the master decides or how the master behaves, the Kameira will obey without question, since it's the word of God. The Kameira is not educated into rhetorics and theological questionings. The Kameira is taught to kneel before God and molded as a tool for the Lord. A weapon does not question, and like Andrew Ryan said in Bioshock, "a man chooses, a slave obeys".

The only thing they value is their worth as ultimate divine weapons and their loyalty to their masters (and thus, God). A Kameira could not understand free will even if he/she tried to. They would be lost without orders and masters. They are not taught to be self sufficient. They are taught to be dependent of their masters, and are indoctrinated into believing unconditionally into a strong esprit de corps.

So, in order to break all this and transform a Kameira into a singular, self conscious, free entity, would rather need serious and reasonable explanations, since all these traits are the exact opposites of what a Kameira is in the first place : a slave, an ignorant zealot, and a member of a collective of brothers/sisters bond by the blood spilled on the battlefield (they even go so far as burning their dead comrades and put their ashes into their wounds to carry them along, to the horror of their masters).


Edit : the devotion of the Kameiras leaded me on a whim to add a duality to my own character by introducing a loyal, fervent Kameira of her family to stick with her, whatever she thinks, whatever are her true beliefs or faith, whatever everything actually. She is just of the blood of the master he served, and so, a figure above him blessed by God, and so he serves, and never questions. The simple idea that his master (my character) would be somehow going against God's will is heresy, even if it might be the case. It is not for him to question that. Which makes him cling to her like a loyal, unswerving pet where she, at the same time, never asked for this and actually despises him for what he represents, and for his true essence, as well as the reminder of her birth and obligations. Well, at least that's how I interpret all of this.

[Lyn Farel]

Good luck though, it's not really easy to play that kind of tortured character.

[Katrina Oniseki]

I'd like to add that retconning can be a very discouraging and unpleasant experience for anybody. I think those above have good advice, and a lot of it is sound. But before you consider excising entire sections of your character's history (if you do at all), consider this:

Sometimes ignoring a plot device is better than retconning it.

[Ayallah]

First, I don't intend to retconn anything, just polish the bio and make more clear my vision for Aya.  Nothing has happened IC at all that is in any way necessary for remaking the character.

I am not really sure how Aya comes across as the center of attention, I very often feel like a side character in many discussions.  I will try to be more aware of it though, it isn't something I really want or care for. 

Sympathy sueing is something that to me seems like another thing I can chalk up to my own bad RPing.  Sympathy and pity are two things I have never tried to play for nor have any interest or respect in.  I am not sure what is giving off this vibe but it alarms me to hear it said.

I do like a lot of the ideas you put forth but simply put that is not my vision of how a Kameira should be.  To me the far scarier and more dangerous person is one who knows what is up.  Blind ignorance is very unattractive to me though I don't think you were really talking about that.  As for the being 'broken' It is very heavily assumed that Aya is broken.  And yet she still evokes the name of god, she still thinks of home and wishes to return to her old life.  Her faith is to god, not to Amarr.  To the Empress, not to the empire. She dislikes many of the common soldiers and capsuleers on the side of Amarr because to her they are unworthy, the vast majority of Amarr is unworthy.  This is not fully explored simply because they are deep motivations and she is not close enough to many people to talk about them.

In small things Aya is very individualistic.  But every decision in her life she goes to those around her and asks, what do I do, what do I do.  She left Pyre in an istant because someone told her to, she went through with trying to get her citezenship because someone else told her this was a good idea.  The ideas she does have, to return to amarr, to leave empire space, she talks about endlessly, searching for some one to tell her what the right move is. 

As for her 'allegiance' to the republic.  it is not allegiance.  She follows because that is what those around her want.  In reality the Republic pays her to kill things and that was her motivation as she tried time and time again to connect with Amarrians.  She wants to see her people succeed, but is not invested in it any more than she wants to see Gallente or Amarr to succeed.  It is strength she respects.  She is lost, she doesn't know what to do or what is right, someone tells her be TLF so she does but even still she is seeking to return home. 

But she isn't a lost puppy to be sympithized with, she is a terrorist and a predator that has no Idea where to put her energy or what she is supposed to be doing.  If Amarr would have welcomed her back as she expected to be, as a Kameira, she would have converted a long time ago.  As it stands now, of this writing, she has left the TLF in pursuit of another authority to follow. 

Thank you all again for the feedback, I think the greatest part of the community is the ability to come together to help write a character and flesh them out into a person.  Thanks again for helping a newbro out =)

-J

[Nicoletta Mithra]

So, in order to break all this and transform a Kameira into a singular, self conscious, free entity, would rather need serious and reasonable explanations, since all these traits are the exact opposites of what a Kameira is in the first place : a slave, an ignorant zealot, and a member of a collective of brothers/sisters bond by the blood spilled on the battlefield (they even go so far as burning their dead comrades and put their ashes into their wounds to carry them along, to the horror of their masters).

Kameira's are still humans and humans are always, to some degree, 'singular, self conscious, free entities'. No amount of brainwashing can change that, really, nor does the Kameira training really aim at it, because being a singular, self conscious, free entity is of great benefit in a combat situation.

Just my two cents.

[Vincent Pryce]

Very detailed write-up thumbs up for that. Full of Super-Sue, but that's an easy mistake to make in RP, especially in EVE.

My advice would be limit the grandiose claims until you have few years under your belt and gotten some things done. Characters with impressive track records who get respect for those track records tend to be people whom have actually done a lot of stuff in game both in long building RP and in-space activity. Examples on this are Graelyn and Istvaan, they can make their respective claims credibly that they are the kings of the hill, because they actually are, because they've done things to be there.

In EVE you have to actually create your achievements and track record, not just write one up and expect people to respect it, because they won't, nor should they they have no reason to when there's people who've actually done and achieved by playing and doing.

Take out of this what you will.

[Lyn Farel]

So, in order to break all this and transform a Kameira into a singular, self conscious, free entity, would rather need serious and reasonable explanations, since all these traits are the exact opposites of what a Kameira is in the first place : a slave, an ignorant zealot, and a member of a collective of brothers/sisters bond by the blood spilled on the battlefield (they even go so far as burning their dead comrades and put their ashes into their wounds to carry them along, to the horror of their masters).

Kameira's are still humans and humans are always, to some degree, 'singular, self conscious, free entities'. No amount of brainwashing can change that, really, nor does the Kameira training really aim at it, because being a singular, self conscious, free entity is of great benefit in a combat situation.

Just my two cents.

Never said they were devoid of any last remnant of free will. That's actually why I said it's difficult to turn them, or I would have said it's impossible to convert them. But at this rate we are going to fall into semantics and what is really of the realm of impossible. I had more in mind "improbable".

[Saede Riordan]

Very detailed write-up thumbs up for that. Full of Super-Sue, but that's an easy mistake to make in RP, especially in EVE.

My advice would be limit the grandiose claims until you have few years under your belt and gotten some things done. Characters with impressive track records who get respect for those track records tend to be people whom have actually done a lot of stuff in game both in long building RP and in-space activity. Examples on this are Graelyn and Istvaan, they can make their respective claims credibly that they are the kings of the hill, because they actually are, because they've done things to be there.

In EVE you have to actually create your achievements and track record, not just write one up and expect people to respect it, because they won't, nor should they they have no reason to when there's people who've actually done and achieved by playing and doing.

Take out of this what you will.

This really.

[Lyn Farel]

Very detailed write-up thumbs up for that. Full of Super-Sue, but that's an easy mistake to make in RP, especially in EVE.

My advice would be limit the grandiose claims until you have few years under your belt and gotten some things done. Characters with impressive track records who get respect for those track records tend to be people whom have actually done a lot of stuff in game both in long building RP and in-space activity. Examples on this are Graelyn and Istvaan, they can make their respective claims credibly that they are the kings of the hill, because they actually are, because they've done things to be there.

In EVE you have to actually create your achievements and track record, not just write one up and expect people to respect it, because they won't, nor should they they have no reason to when there's people who've actually done and achieved by playing and doing.

Take out of this what you will.

Depends what the claims are, even for a historical monument of the Eve History to me. It still has to remain credible and within the commonly accepted rules of RP.

I ain't gonna accept godmodding or the likes more easily just because someone accomplished a lot of things IG. Quite the opposite in fact, since the player does not even have the excuse of being new.

[Ayallah]

Very detailed write-up thumbs up for that. Full of Super-Sue, but that's an easy mistake to make in RP, especially in EVE.

My advice would be limit the grandiose claims until you have few years under your belt and gotten some things done. Characters with impressive track records who get respect for those track records tend to be people whom have actually done a lot of stuff in game both in long building RP and in-space activity. Examples on this are Graelyn and Istvaan, they can make their respective claims credibly that they are the kings of the hill, because they actually are, because they've done things to be there.

In EVE you have to actually create your achievements and track record, not just write one up and expect people to respect it, because they won't, nor should they they have no reason to when there's people who've actually done and achieved by playing and doing.

Take out of this what you will.

I am going to point out again that the term sue isn't really helpful to me.  I understand that there is a massive requirement for time-in before claims are made but I thought I was very realistic about the in-game things that I actually have any power over. 

I really am not sure how else to write the background for a Kameira and the feedback I am getting seems to be of the consensus: don't even try.

I am not sure if that is in fact what you are trying to say but I can tell you that I want to play Aya and I intend to.  She is a Kameira, she has done Kameira things.  Space will catch up.  RP will catch up.  If I played Aya for a year and *then* said I was a Kameira and started acting  like one that would be crazy.  If there is something *specifically* I am doing wrong, please let me know but this thread seems to be descending into saying you sue, you suck, reroll.

Not going to happen, Aya is here to stay.

[Vincent Pryce]

Very detailed write-up thumbs up for that. Full of Super-Sue, but that's an easy mistake to make in RP, especially in EVE.

My advice would be limit the grandiose claims until you have few years under your belt and gotten some things done. Characters with impressive track records who get respect for those track records tend to be people whom have actually done a lot of stuff in game both in long building RP and in-space activity. Examples on this are Graelyn and Istvaan, they can make their respective claims credibly that they are the kings of the hill, because they actually are, because they've done things to be there.

In EVE you have to actually create your achievements and track record, not just write one up and expect people to respect it, because they won't, nor should they they have no reason to when there's people who've actually done and achieved by playing and doing.

Take out of this what you will.

I am going to point out again that the term sue isn't really helpful to me.  I understand that there is a massive requirement for time-in before claims are made but I thought I was very realistic about the in-game things that I actually have any power over. 

I really am not sure how else to write the background for a Kameira and the feedback I am getting seems to be of the consensus: don't even try.

I am not sure if that is in fact what you are trying to say but I can tell you that I want to play Aya and I intend to.  She is a Kameira, she has done Kameira things.  Space will catch up.  RP will catch up.  If I played Aya for a year and *then* said I was a Kameira and started acting  like one that would be crazy.  If there is something *specifically* I am doing wrong, please let me know but this thread seems to be descending into saying you sue, you suck, reroll.

Not going to happen, Aya is here to stay.

You miss the point entirely. You need to lay off the defencive kool-aid. I'm not saying "don't play a Kameiras" or even "don't play a badass."  and I'm not most certainly saying don't play Ayallah.

I'll put it in very simple terms;

Start small, build towards the big shit over time. New character making big boasts is not going to be taken seriously and that will just end up in frustration on your part. Most of us oldies have seen this happen to one or more new and excited players.

That was the essence of my message.

PS. Lyn, well... What you are saying is just common sense, dude, and I agree with you completely on that one. However, you missed the point and were not discussing people godmoding. The topic is about having done some shit and having the badges and scars to prove it.

[Ayallah]

You miss the point entirely. You need to lay off the defencive kool-aid. I'm not saying "don't play a Kameiras" or even "don't play a badass."  and I'm not most certainly saying don't play Ayallah.

I'll put it in very simple terms;

Start small, build towards the big shit over time. New character making big boasts is not going to be taken seriously and that will just end up in frustration on your part. Most of us oldies have seen this happen to one or more new and excited players.

That was the essence of my message.

PS. Lyn, well... What you are saying is just common sense, dude, and I agree with you completely on that one. However, you missed the point and were not discussing people godmoding. The topic is about having done some shit and having the badges and scars to prove it.

I guess I may have but you can understand how 'defensive' is how I am playing this.  This thread went from constructive to attacking pretty quick.

And here is the thing I still don't understand about what you are saying, 'start small, build towards big shit over time.' I have.  IC almost 90% of Aya's history is still unexplored.  And how much of this is stuff that can be modified over time?  In my opinion very very little.  If the mistake was publishing a background before the IC RP was there then that is understandable.  If you are saying having this background at all is unfeasible well, there isn't much else you can put for a Kameira who isn't part of the Empire anymore.