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[Svetlana Scarlet]

I've already discussed my issues with that article. I don't think displacing them is one thing, wholesale slaughter is another entirely. The Caldari have never been portrayed like that anywhere else, even in the worst of TonyG's stuff. And it contradicts itself as well (they are expected to commit suicide and can be killed at will, but there's still millions or billions of them lying around?). The Caldari are cold and pragmatic, but they are not Sanshas.

[Katrina Oniseki]

I've already discussed my issues with that article. I don't think displacing them is one thing, wholesale slaughter is another entirely. The Caldari have never been portrayed like that anywhere else, even in the worst of TonyG's stuff. And it contradicts itself as well (they are expected to commit suicide and can be killed at will, but there's still millions or billions of them lying around?). The Caldari are cold and pragmatic, but they are not Sanshas.

Well you said "presumably", so I took that to mean you weren't aware of what PF actually said. If you simply don't agree with PF, that's another thing entirely.

I have to ask though... are you ignoring the PF in favor of the way you think it should be? I don't have a problem with that mind you, I'm just trying to understand you clearly. I like your version better than PF... but I was under the assumption that PF is canon, and I always thought you'ree not supposed to argue with canon.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

I don't think anyones suggesting that Achura is technologically backwards (Well, atleast I'm not), just infrastruturally. As somebody who has a bit of family in rural Japan, that's how I tend to picture the planet. Fairly modern but small towns with some really clear archaic elements just beneath the surface if one looks.

In regard to the other stuff... Well, I can respect your distaste for ways that the setting has changed, Svetlana. I might not have played long, but it's obvious to me it's been pretty much run through the mud, with enough revisions and contradictions of past sources to make ones head hurt.

But at the end of the day, if you choose to ignore PF - Even if it is "unlikely", or just plain stupid - You're playing in a different world then I am. And that kinda makes discussing the setting like this a bit pointless.

I mean... It literally says "client state", and "autonomous government", and the other article says there are explicit nonpersons outside of corporate hierarchy who don't have this special status. So, well...

[Della Monk]

I haven't got much to contribute here, but as someone who picked Achura long before seriously deciding to RP, this has been a very thought-provoking discussion. Thanks.

[Shiori]

I don't think anyones suggesting that Achura is technologically backwards (Well, atleast I'm not), just infrastruturally.

I imagine it as something out of Samsara. Just a day's walk off the main roads, there are monasteries where the trappings of daily life is basically indistinguishable from life three hundred years ago. About once a month, a severely out-of-place looking census taker or social worker passes through, counting heads or handing out vaccinations, antibiotics and the like.

With genuine concern, they ask whether the monks still don't want to get a permanent connection to the infosphere. "It's great, you can watch funny pictures of cats and everything."

[Gesakaarin]

The Achur seem to be a minority culture and society within a wider Caldari State that is racially and culturally homogenous, high militarized, nationalist, corporatist and capitalist. The entire relationship and "accord" between Caldari State corporations and its citizens is that they don't get in the way and make too much of a fuss or draw attention to themselves. However, in a hypothetical scenario, if SuVee one day decides to go ahead and build the equivalent of the Three Gorges Damn somewhere in rural Saisio III and forcibly remove Achurans from their villages and deport them elsewhere, who are they going to complain to?

Sukuuvestaa has legal jurisdiction at a corporate level if its their real-estate, they can just say those villagers are squatters in the CBT because there's no independent courts for those villagers to launch any form of legal process. Appeal to the public? Sukuuvestaa can just spin or frame those villagers as agitators, seditionists, dissidents or what have you and send in the boots of the Peace and Order Unit to clear them out and if it's done in a way that appeals to Caldari nationalist sentiment or which makes them an, "Enemy of the State" what public support would those evicted villagers receive?

Sure, the fact the State is currently presented as a deeply authoritarian, perhaps even fascist, society where corporations control all aspects of civic and political life, might be unpalatable to some by modern standards but there it is.

And why wouldn't Caldari have a polite diminutive for Achur -- especially among Patriot born citizens -- that shows their subtle contempt for Achurans that don't integrate into State society, thus showing that they prefer to be a regressive and backwards people who don't contribute anything to the Greater Good?

[Gwen Ikiryo]

Well, keep in mind that there are Achur in high positions in Sukuuvestaa, even if they're not dominant - They probably have quite a few shareholders, now. Even though they might be converted to Caldari culture, they're probably irrationally sentimental for their homeworld in the same way Caldari are for their own. Thus, there's probably enough internal pressure to leave Saisio III alone that it's generally easier and more economical to find other places to build their latest industrial colony/uranium mine/organ harvesting farm.

Also, I don't believe it's ever said that SuVee actually owns the land in the rural areas, or if the Elder Visionaries just directly submissive to the State as a collective whole. (Although obviously they could seize it without much effort if they could somehow overcome the aforementioned internal challenges.)

[Shiori]

If their status, rights, and privileges as a client nation is enshrined in a contract of some sort - and where else would it be? - they could maybe appeal to the CBT?

[Gesakaarin]

If their status, rights, and privileges as a client nation is enshrined in a contract of some sort - and where else would it be? - they could maybe appeal to the CBT?

Well that's the thing isn't it? If there's no indication of some kind independent "Achuran Authority" then where do Achurans outside of a Megacorporation have any sort of legal rights in the State, where without a constitution, it's only a Megacorporation that provides legal rights to their employees/citizens?

I don't see Sukuvestaa bulldozing around Saisio III not because they can't - they can - it's only because they have no practical reason to do so at this point in time. Sure, SuVee might have an Achuran presence internally, a greater one in fact than any other Megacorp, but there's a difference to playing to the Achur culture out of Public Relations and putting a positive spin on how much it cares for the Achur people to cover its perhaps less than savory business practices but that doesn't change the fact that it's a Caldari Megacorp with a reputation for ruthlessness in an already ruthless corporate environment -- if Saisio III had something SuVee wanted I don't think all the rose-tinted Caldari-Achur Friendship posters are going to stop them from going to get it, and there's very little I think native Achurans could do to prevent it.

The current arrangement the State has with the Achur to me is precisely because they are minority, aren't a point of cultural friction, and display a general willingness to integrate into Caldari Megacorporate society without too much hassle. If the Achur ever started causing issues due to their position in the State for SuVee or indeed any Mega, then the current dynamics of the Caldari-Achuran relationship would be liable to change I think.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

I'm not sure I agree with your assumption that the Achura have "no rights" other then those provided to them by SuVee, considering it's been established that they have a quite special and unique relationship with the Caldari as a whole (Specifically, the article says "with The State" rather then "With Sukuuvestaa", I should note) that might well result in them existing somewhat outside of the regular corporate governance structure. For all we know, the Elder Visionaries might even be considered their own quasi-independent "corporation" like entity, which while pure theory, might make a decent bit of sense considering considering the article describes them as a "government".

And again, it's not really made clear just how much sway Achur have within the corporation proper. While the Demographics article quite cleanly lays out the facts of the the relationship with the State, it doesn't really go into the metapolitics of the whole affair. It's impossible to know just how it's set up, in both practical and legal respects.

I mean, I know you're a fan of the grimdarkfacistdeathfuture interpretation of the PF in general, Gesakaarin, and that's all well and good. But in this case there's not really anything at present to suggest it's anything but: An interpretation.

Still, it's not really likely it'll ever be tested - Since doing so would sort of entail radically changing the Achura backgrounds, something I doubt CCP would ever do - So I don't suppose it really matters which is correct, since "We could squish you Achura on a whim if we wanted" and "Silly Caldari, we have enough influence that that would never happen" are both quite valid IC standpoints to hold, regardless of the actual situation in pure legal/logistical terms.

[Shiori]

Well that's the thing isn't it? If there's no indication of some kind independent "Achuran Authority" then where do Achurans outside of a Megacorporation have any sort of legal rights in the State, where without a constitution, it's only a Megacorporation that provides legal rights to their employees/citizens?

They're described as a "client state". That 'state' is relevant; it indicates that while they're (obviously) in a subservient position, they are recognized as an independent entity that has some rights and privileges. I've no doubt that SuVee can plonk dams wherever it wants on Saisio V nevertheless, but will have to use traditional political methods (ie. vote-trading, graft and strong-arming) to make it nice and legal-like.

[Aria Jenneth]

And it contradicts itself as well (they are expected to commit suicide and can be killed at will, but there's still millions or billions of them lying around?). The Caldari are cold and pragmatic, but they are not Sanshas.

Bear in mind that all "nonentity" means is expulsion from Caldari society. The subjects should, in the society's eyes, kill themselves out of shame and can be done in if someone's of a mind to do so, but that's not to say that all can or do.

And this happens pretty much any time someone falls right off the bottom rung of Caldari society-- that is, pretty often.

Not seeing a contradiction there-- not least because the Caldari aren't Sansha. They're human beings, fully capable of mercy (or of just not wanting to dirty their hands).

I was under the assumption that PF is canon, and I always thought you'ree not supposed to argue with canon.

This.

I'll argue with Tony G, but, with due respect to any poor sod who's struggling to assemble a good story, Tony G makes a systematic hash of canon.

The rest is just a pile of bricks I prefer to work with rather than debate the existence of.

[Gesakaarin]

I mean, I know you're a fan of the grimdarkfacistdeathfuture interpretation of the PF in general, Gesakaarin, and that's all well and good. But there's not really anything at present to suggest it's anything but: An interpretation.

Still, it's not really likely it'll ever be tested - Since doing so would sort of entail radically changing the Achura backgrounds, something I doubt CCP would ever do - So I don't suppose it really matters which is correct, since "We could squish you Achura on a whim if we wanted" and "Silly Caldari, we have enough influence that that would never happen" are both quite valid IC standpoints to hold, regardless of the actual situation in pure legal/logistical terms.

Yes, just as it should be, just as most of this thread is in fact personal opinion, theory-crafting and interpretation. It still doesn't change my view the Achur are, and will continue to be in essence a minority in a State with deep roots of Caldari identity and nationalism. And I'm not sure but if, when the very first seconds of the Caldari State introduction video when making a new character describe it by terms such as, "ruthless corporate dictatorship" why you would think that whole grimdarkfascistdeathfuture is just an interpretation when I've only accepted and internalized what CCP has practically thrown at me.

If you don't want to engage with that aspect of the State, that's your own affair, but not recognizing things in the Demographics article on the Caldari such as say, its militarism and national service, its treatment of minorities and those who aren't part of the corporate system, its focus on the Caldari race as a component of Caldari culture and the degree of nationalism that inculcates, its talk of indoctrination into the corporate system of its citizen then what other political system is there that exists that espouses cultural conservatism, authoritarianism, racial nationalism, corporatism, the importance of the State collectively over the individual, except for Fascism?

So yes, I've had to accept that the character I play was born, raised and educated in what is essentially a Fascist society and my explorations into the State and its society is into the nature of Caldari Fascism as distinct and separate from its modern interpretations as a political ideology focusing instead on its fictional development as it applies to the Caldari State given its history and culture. Now, sure, if someone can construct for me an interpretation as to how the Caldari State is not essentially Fascist in character politically, culturally, and socially as it applies to the Caldari then I'm more than willing to read them.

Now, if you want to disagree in favour of your own interpretation of the State and the Achur's role in it that's your own affair but the hypothetical I provided earlier was intended to point out that the Achur are in fact dependent on Sukuuvestaa given what has been provided on the nature of the State. SuVee could do what they want with Saisio III because they are Megacorporate entity in the State but they don't. because of the strong presence of Achur working for it at high-levels and because even if SuVee are ruthless bastards they can't renege on the recognition they have granted the Achur historically and with all the media/PR they have involving Achur or they would probably lose face and business in the State.

And the extant point to me with that is that it applies to the rest of the State, there's little individuals or groups of people can do to resist what Megacorporate management decides to do because all legal authority and power flows from the corporation itself -- the only means to protect yourself aren't through things like independent courts or constitutional rights but rather either by having enough power or influence for yourself within the corporation or by ensuring that any actions taken against you would be detrimental.

In this, the checks on SuVee being harsh on Achurans is due to the influence they have within the Mega and that it might be seen as a grossly detrimental action affecting its bottom line that its Megacorporate competitors might use against them: "Sukuuvestaa oppresses innocent Achuran villagers on Saisio. Is there no low they would not stoop to? Next, on Hyasyoda News Services".

[Gwen Ikiryo]

I should clarify I wasn't trying to be rude with my last post - Pardon if it came off that way. My "grimdarkfascistdeathfuture" comment was just me being silly. I totally understand where such a conception of the society comes from, and I think you play it well.

Of course, you're quite right that this is all just interpretation. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. My only intent was to refute the idea that SuVee definitely has absolute control and free reign over the land and populace of Saisio III, and little to no respect for them, when in fact the lore behind it is pretty darn vague. I wouldn't want to see that accepted as universal fact amongst the RP community when the PF has hardly put it's foot down on the matter, since, like I said to you earlier, Achura roleplayers have a very small sandbox to play in. It's something that would be felt across the whole planet - And have to be, logically, felt in the backgrounds of all the characters from it.

I can see that we're not going to agree, though, since we've obviously got very different pictures of the setting in our heads. So I'll leave it at that.

Again, apologies if I was a bit more abrasive then I intended.

[Svetlana Scarlet]

I do disagree with that article; I don't think it is particularly correct on many things and while I initially didn't have much of a problem with it, the more I read closely, the more it makes my teeth grind. Considering how it seems to clash with almost everything else we've read about the Caldari, I consider it an outlier and I generally keep my hands off dealing with such things. You can take it for what you will but for now I am suspicious of it.

As far as why wouldn't the Caldari have a word for the Achura that don't fit into Caldari society -- why would the Achura be any different from ANY Caldari that doesn't fit into society? Living in a rural town is hardly a rejection of Caldari culture; obviously there must be thousands or millions of small Caldari towns in the middle of vast agricultural fields or established on remote outposts or what have you. That doesn't mean they have rejected Caldari culture. If they outright reject it, why are they any different from any other Caldari?