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[Gaven Lok ri]

I noticed today that the Dragoon has some really interesting figural art on the front of it.

I am attaching a picture of it. It shows in the first panel a penitent reaching up and in the second panel a saint in full glory.

What is interesting about this are two things:

1. It is probably the first image of a saint in full glory as a saint that I have seen. Its a really neat iconographic way of portraying the Amarrian religion's mission and view of itself.

2. The saint's halo is not a circle but a series of rays sticking out of the head. This appears in ancient art often, primarily on people associated with Apollo or another sun god. What is neat about it is that it says a little about the theology behind saints. IE there is a direct association with sanctity and divine light. Probably could read more into it with reference to Amarrian scriptures, but I am rusty on those right now.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Gaven Lok ri]

Samira just pointed out to me that the solar disk imagery appears in other places.

Most notoriously the Khumaak: http://wiki.eveonline.com/wikiEN/images/e/ea/Khumaak.jpg

This suggests to me that Amarr RP might want to play up light imagery a lot more. It suggests to me that the go to starting model for Amarrian religion should be Sasanian Zoroastrianism before Christianity. This has all sorts of ramifications, I may write them up eventually.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

The depiction of the halo as a set of rays rather than a circle is something that is quite often seen in christianity as well (here,here,here and here for example). John is filled with light symbolism.

One of the most ancient christian hymns describes God/Jesus as gladdening light (Φῶς Ἱλαρόν) and one of the most important parts of the liturgy is the Vesper, which originated as Lucernarium and is oftentimes celebrated as such to this day.

I'd be cautious to place too much into this depiction. Solar symbolism is quite universal in human cultures.

[Horatius Caul]

If battleships would have the same scale of details on their hulls, I would be ever so happy.

[Gaven Lok ri]

The depiction of the halo as a set of rays rather than a circle is something that is quite often seen in christianity as well (here,here,here and here for example). John is filled with light symbolism.

One of the most ancient christian hymns describes God/Jesus as gladdening light (Φῶς Ἱλαρόν) and one of the most important parts of the liturgy is the Vesper, which originated as Lucernarium and is oftentimes celebrated as such to this day.

I'd be cautious to place too much into this depiction. Solar symbolism is quite universal in human cultures.

However, given the sheer amount of Persian culture in Amarr, I think its reasonable to play up those elements much more than we do. But that is a much bigger argument. I mostly just thought this was a cool thing to see. 

[Adreena Madeveda]

If battleships would have the same scale of details on their hulls, I would be ever so happy.

Each Amarr ship a flying book. Do want.

[Sepherim]

I love it.

[Shaikar]

That's a very nice find, going to check the other newer ships/models out when I get back home now. It was a shame when they removed the little details in Trinity (eg the greek symbols off the Bestower), nice to see they're coming back in some form.

"By His light, and His will" - The Scriptures, Gheinok the First, 12:32

^ That came to  mind as the most obvious scriptural reference to light when reading this thread. It's true that light references are common in a lot of religions though.

[Louella Dougans]

* Louella Dougans feels strangely vindicated

http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=2983.msg44237#msg44237



Also, there's around 4 or so passages in the Scriptures mentioning light. The Light of faith, a guiding light in the darkness, and so on.

[Makkal]

... Sasanian Zoroastrianism...

That's not a bad idea.

[Lyn Farel]

Nice. Some frigates have similar things, but it's mostly abstract and less detailed.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

However, given the sheer amount of Persian culture in Amarr, I think its reasonable to play up those elements much more than we do. But that is a much bigger argument. I mostly just thought this was a cool thing to see.

I'm all for playing up the 'persianity' of the Amarr, I still don't think that the depiction here leads one to assume Sassanid Zoroastrianism. First, as far as I know Sassanian Zoroastrism was probably decidedly dualistic. The Amarr are not. Second, Sassanian Zoroastrism was tolerant to other religions within it's sphere of influence (safe for christians for some time, but that was due to political ties between Christianity and Rome). The Amarr are not. And third, Zoroastrism in general was (and is) opposed to the idea and practice of slavery, though the commitment to this varied. Amarr, quite blatantly, are not.

That said, the picture really only intimates some symbology in association with light. This, alone does indicate nothing. And even if we assume the 'persianity' of the Amarr as an additional premise (which we must, if we want to get with our interpretation into the direction of Sassanid Zoroastrism) then we have to acknowledge that Persian culture has far more to offer than merely Sassanid Zoroastrism in regard to religions:

The better part of the last two millennia Persian culture has been predominantly Islamic. Judaism, Christianity, Manichaeism, Baha'i and other religions all played a role in the Persian cultural space. Not to speak of all the variations of Zoroastrism itself, from Achaemenid era Zoroastrism, through Sassanid Zurvanism and Persian Mithraism up to modern Irani Zoroastrism.

So, while I am in favor of taking inspiration from all of these (as I did, actually) I don't think that the picture or anything else means that we should take Zoroastrism as a 'model of the Amarr religion'. Christianity, by the way, is in my book an equally bad choice. Just as any other real world religion.

I honestly believe it is far more fruitful to look at the PF and characterize the Amarrian religion in terms of religious studies and philosophy of religion, assuming that it is as unique as any extent religion, rather than starting from an already skewed viewpoint for the sake of familiarity. If people would more broadly adopt this, there would hopefully be less IC discussion turned into OOC attacks on RL religion(s). Also, I think it would lead to appreciating Amarr reliogion as something unique, which we really should, imho.

P.S.: It is most definitely a cool thing to see. And I would like to see much more of it, as well. As Adreena said: Every Amarrian ship a book/icon! \o/

[Samira Kernher]

However, given the sheer amount of Persian culture in Amarr, I think its reasonable to play up those elements much more than we do. But that is a much bigger argument. I mostly just thought this was a cool thing to see.

I'm all for playing up the 'persianity' of the Amarr, I still don't think that the depiction here leads one to assume Sassanid Zoroastrianism.

There's also the fact that we have Sassanid names, though. Ardishapur for example... Ardashir, Shapur

[Gottii]

Ive been saying for years that Gotttii had always carved passages and images from the book The Princess of Pator on the hull's of his Amarrian vessels.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

However, given the sheer amount of Persian culture in Amarr, I think its reasonable to play up those elements much more than we do. But that is a much bigger argument. I mostly just thought this was a cool thing to see.

I'm all for playing up the 'persianity' of the Amarr, I still don't think that the depiction here leads one to assume Sassanid Zoroastrianism.

There's also the fact that we have Sassanid names, though. Ardishapur for example... Ardashir, Shapur

Ardashir was also a Armenian King (of the 5th century BC and thus even earlier than the Sassanids!) and the name is merely a more modern, westernized (from Arđaxšēr) version of  Artaxšaθra (of which name we had numerous rulers of Achaemenid Persia). Shapur is similarly a westernizeded version of Šahpūhrī, which at least is first attested in Sassanian times.

So, should we then not assume that the Amarr are rather westernized (that is, probably, byzantinized?) Sassanians? If that's true, they would probably have been forced to adapt byzantine orthodox christianity, no? <,< Otherwise, it wouldn't be Ardishapur, but Arđaxšahpūhrī, no?

Also, the Name Shapur isn't exactly unheared of in the modern states that lie in the former Persian territory. Shapur Bakhtiar, the last Prime Minister of Iran under Mohammad Reza Pahlavi comes to mind. He was, by the way agnostic (heresy!). Or Shapur ibn Sahl, a ninth century Persian Christian physician from the Academy of Gundishapur. And Shapur of Bet-Nicator was the Christian bishop of Bet-Nicato who was martyred by his contemporary Shapur II for preaching against Zoroastrianism.

So, I think it's clear that the names aren't particularly Sassanian either.

P.S.: (Old) Sarum is the name of the site of the earliest settlement of Salisbury, in England. There's also the Sarum Rite of Christian Liturgy. Do we have to assume that the Sarum Family is a bunch of Anglicans, now?