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[Cynthia Gallente]

... I just don't see why its a big deal.

This is exactly what I'm thinking.
Someone else's roleplay is theirs, what's the problem if they want to do something with it?  It's really not a big deal.
People wanna be space lesbians? Fine.  There are plenty of reasons for it, and again... who cares?

Also is Eve rp all about sex?

[Myyona]

It is not a big deal. But it is fair to make people aware, that in their attempt to create a "special" background trait for their character, has become "common" by so many others selecting the same trait.

Btw. my oldest friend in EVE is RL lesbian and I have been hanging out in her private channel for years, which, for reasons I do not care about, also contains a number of other homosexuals. What makes me itch, is that these are perfectly normal people while the "space lesbian" is not.

[Katrina Oniseki]

What makes me itch, is that these are perfectly normal people while the "space lesbian" is not.

Could you elaborate on that statement?

[Kyoko Sakoda]

The problem is not GLBTQ characters, or people who play them. The problem lies at the cross-section of feminist theory and the majority demographics of EVE players.

[Myyona]

Maybe 'when' should replace 'while' in that sentence.

I guess we can agree that sexual orientation should not be an issue, at least when it comes to homosexuality contra heterosexuality. But that also begs the question, why did your character have to be homosexual? Why not stick with heterosexuality which you know well?* Is the argument "I am not a space ship captain in real life either" because did you not just then argue that you selected homosexuality, in specific being lesbian, as you regard it as mysterious lifestyle you want to explore. And by that actual separating the sexual orientations instead of acknowledging that they are both normal and equally boring/exciting.

*: Disregard argument if you do not.

I think a good example of the "space lesbian" is how Tony G in T1 portrayed Jamyl's sexual deviancies in her youth. While likely intended otherwise, they seemed completely out of character and appeared only part of the story as some kind of "wow" effect.

[Katrina Oniseki]

But that also begs the question, why did your character have to be homosexual? Why not stick with heterosexuality which you know well?

Simca was the first to show interest in Katrina IC, and second to Seriphyn Inhonores, was also one of the first people to offer a recurring storyline and OOC friendship to myself. I was new to the scene, and Simca took me under his wing. Why didn't I take Seriphyn, being the first? Because he was playing an alt, not the actual Seriphyn, and I didn't want to involve my main character heavily with an alternate he had to stop playing his main to log in. I took Simca's offered roleplay and ran with it. It ended up being a nearly two yer long RP storyline.

Following that, after Simca's IC 'death', Erys (again a female) was not the first per se (since now I had two years of meeting people behind me)... but she was certainly the one who ended up spending the most consistent time roleplaying with me from an OOC standpoint. Online every day at the same time, offering impressive dialogue and character development, and helping me work through the storyline mess that became of Katrina. Simply put, with all the effort Erys put into working with me during those weeks, we allowed our characters to being interested to ensure continued development.

My character became involved in homosexual relationships because the players behind the characters offered me what I was looking for in the right amounts at the right time. MY character stinll has romantic interests in plenty of males. Kiruss Dasun, Pieter, Stitcher, John in a platonic way, Valdezi, and even Tiberius in a small way. All males, and all people she was/is interested in. Kiruss is taken, Pieter is taken, Stitcher is taken, John is her boss, Valdezi treats her like a sister, and Tiberious is a toaster. If the situations were different, they could have been her next partner.

I'll note that I should not feel like I have to roleplay only with a male counterpart in order for my character to be taken seriously. You seem to argue that lesbians and gays are normal people just like everybody else, yet you ask me why I don't just stick to heterosexual (which you assume is my RL sexuality, incorrectly) which I 'know well'. It's almost as if you're suggesting I don't have the right or privilege to play a lesbian in EVE. This is the problem, and the reason why I made this thread, and why "Space Lesbians" term bothers me.

I'll let you draw your own conclusions before speaking further.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Yup, Ministry of Internal Order didn't like him meddling into certain things, and the corpses he had accumulated in his closet. Some were... politically sensible.

Haven't had the right friends in the right places it seems. Poor man.

But I'll tell him next time I get a Legio visit, I'm sure he'd like to know it in his monastery.

That is outright cruel. Does he receive female visitors?

[Myyona]

I read it as your characters sexual orientation are based on (non-sexual) OOC needs Y/N?

My question was open: "why did your character have to be homosexual?" and it seems you have an answer for your character which seem fine. The "issues" can arise when the answer is indeed that they regard being lesbian as a sexual fantasy they are now going to fulfill.

I have no interest in your RL sexual orientation. I even made a note mark '*' to emphasize that the reader might not be well versed in heterosexuality, as an attempt to indirectly acknowledge that the reader might have other sexual preferences. My only care in peoples sexuality is whether it involves me as partner or not.

[Lyn Farel]

and Tiberious is a toaster.

That's so mean.

[Cynthia Gallente]

I wish I could like posts, cuz I'd like that one.

Anyway...at Myyona
My character is a lesbian because mind your own business, to put it bluntly.
It harkens back to the "does it really matter?" question I posed earlier.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

I read it as your characters sexual orientation are based on (non-sexual) OOC needs Y/N?

My question was open: "why did your character have to be homosexual?" and it seems you have an answer for your character which seem fine. The "issues" can arise when the answer is indeed that they regard being lesbian as a sexual fantasy they are now going to fulfill.

I have no interest in your RL sexual orientation. I even made a note mark '*' to emphasize that the reader might not be well versed in heterosexuality, as an attempt to indirectly acknowledge that the reader might have other sexual preferences. My only care in peoples sexuality is whether it involves me as partner or not.

How does one see in game that a char not is 'lesbian' for the 'wrong OOC reasons'? - That is, apparently, somehow it is not okay to have sexual fantasies about being a lesbian? I also think that the expression "they regard being lesbian as a sexual fantasy" is somehow insinuating that people who have that fantasy a) have much of a say in it and could regard it as something else and b) they 'want' to degrade being lesbian to being 'merely' a sexual fantasy. I think both isn't warranted here.

So, if you don't care for peoples sexuality, why do you care whether they have sexual fantasies about being lesbian and act them out? After all, that's part of their sexuality.

[Ciarente]

I think Myyona may be referring to stereotypical heterosexual male fantasies about lesbians (something Vincent also touched on in his post with a reference to Khanid Slave Girl #whatever getting kinky with Gallente Hussy #umpteen). Having lost count of the number of times a straight man has responded to his advances being shot down with 'Not interested, gay' by saying something along the lines of 'That's okay, your girlfriend can join in', I'm pretty firmly of the opinion that many holders of this fantasy view women as objects, not possessors, of sexual desire. I would suggest that Myyona may be describing players whose fantasy is watching lesbians, not being one, and if the aim of roleplay is to enter into another's experience imaginatively, creating a character as a pliable puppet for fap fodder is the opposite of engaging with the exercise of viewing the world through another's eyes. 

However, the assumption contained in the casual use of 'space lesbian' to refer to non-heterosexual female characters (and I would suggest that a number of posts in this thread reinforce the idea that it's not a compliment) is that most if not all such characters are constructed for such reasons. I've seen Morlag referred to as a 'lolspacelesbian', for example, as well as Kat, regardless of both being complex characters with enduring and plausible relationships. 

There are plenty of other examples of character construction in Eve that can be done very badly, and very stereo-typically, and sometimes as an excuse for the public display of a sexual fantasy (Look! I am violating my slave! And she likes it!) but we don't apply a dismissive term for those characters in a blanket fashion to every character who shares that trait.

It is also worth remembering that for many people, RPing different sexualities and/or genders in games is an important part of exploring the development of their own sexuality or gender identity. Denigrating the concept of choosing to RP a lesbian because its a different and mysterious lifestyle disregards the very real experience of many gay and trans young people for whom GLBTI life is different and mysterious and who may need the buffer of RP to allow them to grapple, in a safe and distanced way, with their own desires and preferences.

While I share the  to towards shallow characters who appear to be nothing more than blank dolls manipulated into a series of sexual encounters by players with little interest in, or understanding of, the validity of GLBTI experience and desire, I think we should all read the OP again and note that it simply asks that we" be careful instead of casually throwing the phrase around."

In my opinion, this is a pretty modest request.

[Saede Riordan]

I think Myyona may be referring to stereotypical heterosexual male fantasies about lesbians (something Vincent also touched on in his post with a reference to Khanid Slave Girl #whatever getting kinky with Gallente Hussy #umpteen). Having lost count of the number of times a straight man has responded to his advances being shot down with 'Not interested, gay' by saying something along the lines of 'That's okay, your girlfriend can join in', I'm pretty firmly of the opinion that many holders of this fantasy view women as objects, not possessors, of sexual desire. I would suggest that Myyona may be describing players whose fantasy is watching lesbians, not being one, and if the aim of roleplay is to enter into another's experience imaginatively, creating a character as a pliable puppet for fap fodder is the opposite of engaging with the exercise of viewing the world through another's eyes. 

However, the assumption contained in the casual use of 'space lesbian' to refer to non-heterosexual female characters (and I would suggest that a number of posts in this thread reinforce the idea that it's not a compliment) is that most if not all such characters are constructed for such reasons. I've seen Morlag referred to as a 'lolspacelesbian', for example, as well as Kat, regardless of both being complex characters with enduring and plausible relationships. 

There are plenty of other examples of character construction in Eve that can be done very badly, and very stereo-typically, and sometimes as an excuse for the public display of a sexual fantasy (Look! I am violating my slave! And she likes it!) but we don't apply a dismissive term for those characters in a blanket fashion to every character who shares that trait.

It is also worth remembering that for many people, RPing different sexualities and/or genders in games is an important part of exploring the development of their own sexuality or gender identity. Denigrating the concept of choosing to RP a lesbian because its a different and mysterious lifestyle disregards the very real experience of many gay and trans young people for whom GLBTI life is different and mysterious and who may need the buffer of RP to allow them to grapple, in a safe and distanced way, with their own desires and preferences.

While I share the  to towards shallow characters who appear to be nothing more than blank dolls manipulated into a series of sexual encounters by players with little interest in, or understanding of, the validity of GLBTI experience and desire, I think we should all read the OP again and note that it simply asks that we" be careful instead of casually throwing the phrase around."

In my opinion, this is a pretty modest request.

So much this.

[Katrina Oniseki]

I even made a note mark '*' to emphasize that the reader might not be well versed in heterosexuality, as an attempt to indirectly acknowledge that the reader might have other sexual preferences.

Fair point. I somehow glossed over that when typing my long winded reply, likely due to lack of sleep. Jet lag will do that to me. I apologize.

I think Myyona may be referring to stereotypical heterosexual male fantasies about lesbians (something Vincent also touched on in his post with a reference to Khanid Slave Girl #whatever getting kinky with Gallente Hussy #umpteen). Having lost count of the number of times a straight man has responded to his advances being shot down with 'Not interested, gay' by saying something along the lines of 'That's okay, your girlfriend can join in', I'm pretty firmly of the opinion that many holders of this fantasy view women as objects, not possessors, of sexual desire. I would suggest that Myyona may be describing players whose fantasy is watching lesbians, not being one, and if the aim of roleplay is to enter into another's experience imaginatively, creating a character as a pliable puppet for fap fodder is the opposite of engaging with the exercise of viewing the world through another's eyes. 

However, the assumption contained in the casual use of 'space lesbian' to refer to non-heterosexual female characters (and I would suggest that a number of posts in this thread reinforce the idea that it's not a compliment) is that most if not all such characters are constructed for such reasons. I've seen Morlag referred to as a 'lolspacelesbian', for example, as well as Kat, regardless of both being complex characters with enduring and plausible relationships. 

There are plenty of other examples of character construction in Eve that can be done very badly, and very stereo-typically, and sometimes as an excuse for the public display of a sexual fantasy (Look! I am violating my slave! And she likes it!) but we don't apply a dismissive term for those characters in a blanket fashion to every character who shares that trait.

It is also worth remembering that for many people, RPing different sexualities and/or genders in games is an important part of exploring the development of their own sexuality or gender identity. Denigrating the concept of choosing to RP a lesbian because its a different and mysterious lifestyle disregards the very real experience of many gay and trans young people for whom GLBTI life is different and mysterious and who may need the buffer of RP to allow them to grapple, in a safe and distanced way, with their own desires and preferences.

While I share the  to towards shallow characters who appear to be nothing more than blank dolls manipulated into a series of sexual encounters by players with little interest in, or understanding of, the validity of GLBTI experience and desire, I think we should all read the OP again and note that it simply asks that we" be careful instead of casually throwing the phrase around."

In my opinion, this is a pretty modest request.

Thank you, Ciarente.

[Matoko]

One question to be asked is "How does being a lesbian (or any sexual preference for that matter) add to the character?" For some, like Kat (or so it sounds, do correct me if I'm wrong), it's wasn't a planned aspect. It just sort of evolved, which is the best way to gain aspects in my opinion. Even if the reason for it being is the Player finds lesbians attractive, it's still a legitimate reason.

The only time I'd consider it not legitimate is if being lesbian/gay/xenophiliac is the only aspect of the character. It's perfectly fine to have these aspects, and you can even make them main aspects if you want, but if the only thing you use to describe the character is that she's a lesbian... It's just not very interesting. What else is she, in addition to being attracted to other females?

This doesn't apply only to sexual preferences either. You can ask the same question about a person who calls themselves a soldier. "Ok, what kind of soldier? Why did they want to join the military/militia? How do they view their opponents? What is their fighting style? How long have they been fighting? What, if anything, do they do concerning the people they've killed? Have they lost any friends in the line of duty?" So on and so forth. Summing a character up into one word, be it soldier, scientist, patriot, conservative, lesbian, hedonist, or anything else, doesn't provide enough flavor. It's the, "I am 'X', and also 'Y' and 'Z' " that gives characters depth, makes them interesting. (Also beware of trying to wear too many hats. As the Buddha would say, not enough is bad, but so is too much)