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[Makkal]

It's not sexist to suggest that when two men create female characters and have those female character engage in graphic sex, they may be doing so because the idea of two women having sex gets them off. Nor is it sexist to point out a larger cultural trend in which men treat sexual activities between women as existing primarily for their pleasure and enjoyment.

That said, I have no idea if whatever 'heat' Kat has gotten is based on criticism of a sexist cultural dynamic someone believes is playing itself out in Kat's RP.

It just as well might be that they see eRP as inherently stupid. Or acting out a romantic relationship through RP as unhealthy. Or that there are too many lesbian in EVE so all of them are cliche. Or just regular homophobia in that both players might be men or that lesbian characters are just not as good as straight female characters.

Maybe they just don't like Kat, either the character or the player behind her, and 'space lesbians' is low hanging fruit.

We can talk about lesbian characters in general and the issues surrounding them, but delving into why people have expressed disapproval for a specific relationship or character is futile unless the people who have expressed that disapproval share their thoughts.

"Being gay isn't about sex, it's about being in love"

I've known lesbians who can have emotional intimacy and even romantic feelings toward men but don't because cock does nothing for them.

Sexual desire is a big part of sexual orientation.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Maybe I should stop posting.
I'm going to stop posting.

This topic has begun to offend me more than any interaction the topic is actually about.

I've typed, edited, deleted, and retyped this post at least five times now, entire paragraphs worth. I'm just going to leave it like this.

On that note, I'm going to step back and politely say good luck to the participants in this thread.

I'm out.

[Makkal]

I'd like to apologize if my posts have contributed to your frustration.

[Ava Starfire]

Someone is different from me!

Oh no! We must point it out and ask why!

A lot of people are different from me! They must have problems!!

Seriously. Whoever thinks that what people choose to do in their free time, with people who consent to do it with them, is in any way, shape, or form any of their goddamn business, really should probably be doing something besides playing a game full of people who will all be doing whatever they want to do in their free time.

[Creep]

Someone is different from me!

Oh no! We must point it out and ask why!

A lot of people are different from me! They must have problems!!

Seriously. Whoever thinks that what people choose to do in their free time, with people who consent to do it with them, is in any way, shape, or form any of their goddamn business, really should probably be doing something besides playing a game full of people who will all be doing whatever they want to do in their free time.

I find a perverse humor in this: In RL, Real Lesbians are discriminated against. In RP, Fake Lesbians are discriminated against.

And then I remember that it's true for Queer/Bi people as well and I get all angry and shit...

[Aria Jenneth]

Someone is different from me!

Oh no! We must point it out and ask why!

A lot of people are different from me! They must have problems!!

Seriously. Whoever thinks that what people choose to do in their free time, with people who consent to do it with them, is in any way, shape, or form any of their goddamn business, really should probably be doing something besides playing a game full of people who will all be doing whatever they want to do in their free time.

I find a perverse humor in this: In RL, Real Lesbians are discriminated against. In RP, Fake Lesbians are discriminated against.

And then I remember that it's true for Queer/Bi people as well and I get all angry and shit...

... I ... can't ... actually tell whether I'm included in these critiques or not, so I'll leave it be.

Creep: do fake gay people suffer discrimination in RP? I had the impression Andreus Ixiris, to bring up one name, was rather admired for choosing to play an openly gay character in an environment as OOC homophobic (genuinely or pseudo, if there's even a meaningful difference) as Eve. Was that just my own reaction? I know they suffer some in-character discrimination, but that I'm inclined to defend as mandated in places by the "role" in roleplay.

The Amarr are not exactly open-minded, as an empire. Neither are the Caldari.

[Creep]

Wait. Andreus' player isn't actually Gay?
 
SO glad I've limited my tipsy flirting to the people I don't know in low...

Also, I'm not sure if you're just doing some light trolling or not, but we are posting in a thread Titled after the pejorative term for Fake Lesbians in RP. People are always judged for playing a gender they're not in RL, for playing a sexual orientation they're not in RL, and for doing both it's worse.
Even I, being both queer IRL and IRP, get shit from people (mostly the "lol no such thing make a choice faggot can't have it both ways", which by now is just sneerworthy) in-game.

Rather than people screaming at you for being a godless sodomite or for 'making life choices' that they disagree with, RPers tend to treat lgbtq characters with a certain condescending "I think you're immature for playing your character like that. Why can't you play a Normal person like the rest of the adults?" attitude.
They assume that people aren't actually LGBTQ, and are just doing it for the ERP/attention/edginess/futuristic-Captain-Jack-Harkness characterization.

The actual OOC homophobia doesn't bother me so much because the harder you hit on them, the funnier they get. (And then you blow them up.) Unlike with Roleplayers (with whom I am trying to have at least a semi-meaningful interaction), I don't give a fuck about talking with real homophobes. If they scream at me for being a cocksucking faggot, I just shrug and continue camping them into station or whatever. With RPers, it rankles, because you'll be having a conversation about ~stuff~ and in the back of your mind you know they're treating your character with far less respect than s/he probably deserves.

...Actually, a lot of RPers do similar things with Goons, TESTies, and low/null pvpers who try to get into Role Play. It's a very similar "you're not a genuine character, you're someone's flight of fancy. Just a vessel for momentary entertainment. Kindly leave so that the REAL RPers can do their thing", whether the issue is LGBTQ or coming from Something Awful/Reddit/Amamake.


I've absolutely no idea if this is a critique of your earlier posts because reading through them, I've no idea why you and Katrina are disagreeing.

[Norrin Ellis]

I honestly don't see the problem here.

People not taking your lesbian character seriously or treating you how you expect to be treated?  Ignore those folks and play with people who do.

Think lesbian characters are hackneyed ERP fantasies?  Ignore them and play with others who suit your tastes.

Life is a lot less stressful, IC and OOC, when you stop worrying about the respect of people whose views you really don't give any fucks about in the first place.

[Jade Constantine]

Hm. Thinking about it a little more, I don't think most people who roll their eyes at "space lesbians" are doing so because they looked at the whole phenomenon through the "feminist lens" of literary criticism (that's what the above is mostly about-- reading underlying, often unintended messages found in a text). What I stated above is more of a scholarly critique. It's what you'd be getting if you ran it in front of a bunch of liberal arts professors (or former students with a good memory). Most people don't even notice stuff like that, even if they're absorbing the messages sent.

Probably, it's more like this:

1. Men in New Eden are real men, and so (often) are the women.

2. Guys playing women in lesbian relationships are usually doing so for the ERP.

3. People tend to roll their eyes at ERP in general. I'd have to think a bit further about exactly why; I don't think the answer's simple (though I'm sure somebody could cough up a few pithy lines that would get at least part of it).

4. Lesbian relationships are usually ERP + there are lots of lesbian relationships = conclusion that there's a lot of ERP going on and that the lesbian relationships are a product of that.

5. People tend to roll their eyes at "space lesbians" in particular as the most obvious ERP-ers.

There. That makes more basic sense.

Now I'm confused, where that leave me as a (straightish) guy playing a female posthuman anarchist in an erotic politico/sexual relationship with a hetro woman playing a (straightish-but gender corruptable) female blood cult space dominatrix?

 

[Aelisha Montenagre]

How ever you feel about it, Jade, is how it is.

Any opinion counter to your idea of well being - well meaning in it's ignorance or disgusting in it's prejudice, is an attempt to subvert YOUR ideal of YOUR well being. 

Norrin was onto something with his statements above, in the IC domain.  In the OOC domain, your mind is the only freedom you can never be divested of by circumstance or design.  Use it as the starting point to ensure the rest of your freedoms are well defended.  This may require stepping on someone else's 'dearly held values', but if their values encroach into telling you how you can feel or think, and how two or more individuals who have parity in those elements of their private life may privately act upon them, their values weren't worth tolerating anyway. 

Liberate the mind, tolerate others and be conservative in how you act against other's freedoms.  It could almost be called the Grand Unified Theory of Being a Decent Person, in that it consolidated the good points of the sociopolitical spectrum from left to right, and is as unattainable as the Grand Unified Theory from which it was butchered . 

[Jade Constantine]

How ever you feel about it, Jade, is how it is.

Any opinion counter to your idea of well being - well meaning in it's ignorance or disgusting in it's prejudice, is an attempt to subvert YOUR ideal of YOUR well being. 

Norrin was onto something with his statements above, in the IC domain.  In the OOC domain, your mind is the only freedom you can never be divested of by circumstance or design.  Use it as the starting point to ensure the rest of your freedoms are well defended.  This may require stepping on someone else's 'dearly held values', but if their values encroach into telling you how you can feel or think, and how two or more individuals who have parity in those elements of their private life may privately act upon them, their values weren't worth tolerating anyway. 

Liberate the mind, tolerate others and be conservative in how you act against other's freedoms.  It could almost be called the Grand Unified Theory of Being a Decent Person, in that it consolidated the good points of the sociopolitical spectrum from left to right, and is as unattainable as the Grand Unified Theory from which it was butchered .

You are such a lovely free-spirited radical I want to hug you!

[Aelisha Montenagre]

Heh, in truth I am a somewhat conservative engineer, but I draw the line at telling people what to think. 

How to think?  Sure, within reason.  Methodology, application and so on affect all walks of life from professional to the most deeply personal, and tbh it'd be a sad world if we had to come up with our own schema for how we form what we think. 

[Silas Vitalia]

We're all guilty of playing into standardized role tropes in our RP.

I'm an evil slaver! or I'm a Freedom Fighter! Or I'm a space tart, who wants to make out!?

It's up to us to try and break out of those molds a little bit. Or not, and receive the full range of eye-rolling from peers when we don't.

Katrina has put enough effort and characterization into her relationship that I daresay she's never been lumped into the standard 'space lesbian' eye rolling trope.

People who spend months and years working and fleshing out these relationships and motivations have nothing to worry about on these topics.

[Silas Vitalia]

That being said people who don't spend that time and effort to develop themselves and appear out of thin air to wave their desires for space lesbian sexychats in everyone's face uninvited will be met with ridicule ammunition on full broadside from me. 

[Shintoko Akahoshi]

We're all guilty of playing into standardized role tropes in our RP.

I'm an evil slaver! or I'm a Freedom Fighter! Or I'm a space tart, who wants to make out!?

It's up to us to try and break out of those molds a little bit. Or not, and receive the full range of eye-rolling from peers when we don't.

Katrina has put enough effort and characterization into her relationship that I daresay she's never been lumped into the standard 'space lesbian' eye rolling trope.

People who spend months and years working and fleshing out these relationships and motivations have nothing to worry about on these topics.

I've tried to stay out of this... discussion? Whatever it is. This is what it comes down to for me, though. I've always said that well thought out and entertaining RP covers a plethora of sins*, and that certainly applies here. "Space Lesbians" are certainly a standardized trope in Eve, one which has basically nothing in common with people RPing actual relationships. The implications should be pretty obvious.

*The word "sins" should be in no way construed to be seen as a view on my part that homosexual relationships are in any way sinful, yadda yadda, etc, God save the queen.