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[Gottii]

Chained to the Sky is a good chronicle for reading about slave education, and also about the kind of freedoms they have. The well-educated, highly placed slaves don't constantly have an overseer over their shoulder cracking a whip, and seem to be able to travel to and from work on their own.

Glad you mentioned that Chronicle, because one important line is in.

It was said in the high halls of Amarr society that Torsad-Laur was the only slave-inhabited quarter where the gentry could walk at night without being attacked – and where, moreover, one could even have a conversation with a slave, if one were inclined toward an evening’s debasement.

The Chronicle represents the exception, not the norm. 

[Samira Kernher]

Aye, it does. It would be nice to have a chronicle that details the life in "common" slave quarters, rather than just the exceptional ones.


Though, while looking through chronicles for more information, I did find this little news article, which is more on topic as it specifically states the canon explanations for the economic inferiority of slaves:

"Yet in recent years the Dark Amarrians have become increasingly frustrated by the lack of economical benefits provided by slavery in a modern world. The cost for raring, supervising and guarding slaves is only marginally lower than the productivity of the slave, especially when one bears in mind that the productivity is already hampered by the slaves being resentful, inexperienced and, frequently, unhealthy."
- News: Khanid Kingdom strenuously denies ill treatment of slaves

[Davlos]

And yet recent PF states that the average standard of living for the Caldari worker is the second-best in the Cluster.

Admittedly, this means they only beat out the average of an Empire pulled down by slavery and the average of a Republic pulled down by poverty-stricken refugee camps, but still - it directly contradicts the idea that the average Caldari worked is only as well off as the average Amarrian slave.

Again, a large part of the inefficiency comes from the centralised nature of a slave economy, the number of personnel that must be used to guard a slave workforce and the inflexibility of a slave economy.

To clarify, I didn't mean PPP, being well-off or anything in my comparison of a Caldari worker's condition to that of an Amarr slave. I was referring to their productivity levels and the state of their socio-economic mobility.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

Socio-economic mobility is also well documented in the State - with the point being made that Executives can give birth to Janitors and Janitors rise to the ranks of Executives.

Of course, you're right that the old, powerful families have effectively managed to do such a good PR job that the public are fooled into thinking that they have their jobs through meritocracy, but that's only the highest level.

The equivalent in the Empire would be of a slave that can make it as far as a lower ranked Holder, but no further.

[Lyn Farel]

I have no doubt the Imperial system is woefully inefficient, wasteful, and generally awful for most people unless you are on the upper ends of the pyramid.

The Empire is also used to having an extremely insular and 100% insulated economic system where these inefficiencies are irrelevant.  It's only when you start trading with other empires and having their products penetrate your markets that you have to worry about those sorts of things.

Contact and trade with the other Empires is likely causing all manor of economic upheaval.  I expect quite a bit of economic protectionism and outright embargos from various Holders on a variety of fronts. 

When the Caldari can make x billion widgets in a factory hyper-efficiently and sell them at cut rates, it would obviously blow any similar Imperial objects out of the water. In an open, fair market.

So far the Empire is still a relatively closed, unfair market.

That's what I find interesting in the Empire situation. It makes me think a little about the RL situation of western economies vs China. The latter has enormous demographics and a sheer productive power but at the same time is still struggling to catch up with western technologies, patents, and overall quality. We are even hearing these days of chinese corps buying out a lot of declining european companies (the crisis and all) where they are suspected to do so just for "technological theft".

However, it does not necessarily makes slavery less efficient. But on the long run, yeah, I think.

Though, while looking through chronicles for more information, I did find this little news article, which is more on topic as it specifically states the canon explanations for the economic inferiority of slaves:

"Yet in recent years the Dark Amarrians have become increasingly frustrated by the lack of economical benefits provided by slavery in a modern world. The cost for raring, supervising and guarding slaves is only marginally lower than the productivity of the slave, especially when one bears in mind that the productivity is already hampered by the slaves being resentful, inexperienced and, frequently, unhealthy."
- News: Khanid Kingdom strenuously denies ill treatment of slaves

Ah, that's a good find.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Btw., the Empire isn't that behind in technology and science: Actually, it has some of the greatest minds in some areas. That's not necessarily because there are slaves working on stuff, but because the Amarrian elite places such high value on education. The PF states explicitly: "Amarr citizens tend to be highly educated and fervent individuals, [...]."

When one chooses faction/race, none other description makes explicit mention of the educational standards of education or the value it has in the respective society, one might take this as a hint that education is highly valued within the Empire, compared to the other three factions.

[Samira Kernher]

They place high value on it, aye, though according to recent reports, it's been in decline for a few years.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Aye, if one wants to believe the Ardishapur chancellor of education. Anyway: apparently the Amarr people are still 'highly educated', the possible decline none withstanding.

[Silver Night]

I think there is a tendency to see the Amarr as a bit backward (because they operate with something roughly like a feudal structure, and have slaves). Technologically though, they lead the cluster in some areas (implants and cybernetics) and are at least on-par in a lot of others. Some of the ship types they use might be decades or centuries old, but they work, they are expensive to replace, and they probably get periodic upgrades (you can see something like this in most modern navies. Hell, the US still uses B-52s).

I think that slavery isn't economically efficient (for the reasons others have covered), but I think the Empire is also stuck. I expect there are probably quite a few people in the Empire who realize it isn't efficient. Things like tradition and religion help keep it in place - and of course simple inertia. Even if an Empire magically without slaves would be more efficient, the slave are there, and they are inseparably tangled up with the Imperial economy.

[lallara zhuul]

There are a lot of hints in the game about the Amarrians having higher technological capability in the past and that they have chosen to regress technologically to reach a more stable society.

The Godflesh dogma could be perceived as taboo that rose from the heresy of cloning by the Takhmal that were driven out of the Empire aaaaages ago.
The implant technology in the Empire is of the highest standard in the cluster and it has not developed in aaaaaages.
Throw the ships and the laser tech on top of that and you've got a theory in your hands...

Slavery might be not be the most efficient in production of goods and bringing resources to the economy, but it does have bigger part in the Amarrian society other than purely economical or religious.

There is no unemployment in the Empire.
There is no prisons in the Empire.

Poor people can sell themselves to slavery to get money for their families.
If a person does a heinous crime, their whole family can go into slavery for it.

The threat of slavery means that there is a lot less crime within the Empire, especially since your whole family may pay the price for your transgressions.

Basically slavery is a quite different tool in a culture for peace and stability that needs a quite a stretch of imagination to actually understand.

Since we are in a serious lack of real Amarrians and solid cultural PF this is a bit of a handwaving thing. I doubt that you can count the difference between slavery and other ways of production with just simple math.

Too many variables.

[Louella Dougans]

things like cloning being heresy, an important thing to note, is that with the timescales involved, then the Amarr theologians would be able to observe the effects that cloning and genetic engineering have, and say "This is clearly A Bad Thing" and say it's unrighteous.

[Lyn Farel]

There are a lot of hints in the game about the Amarrians having higher technological capability in the past and that they have chosen to regress technologically to reach a more stable society.

The Godflesh dogma could be perceived as taboo that rose from the heresy of cloning by the Takhmal that were driven out of the Empire aaaaages ago.
The implant technology in the Empire is of the highest standard in the cluster and it has not developed in aaaaaages.
Throw the ships and the laser tech on top of that and you've got a theory in your hands...

Slavery might be not be the most efficient in production of goods and bringing resources to the economy, but it does have bigger part in the Amarrian society other than purely economical or religious.

There is no unemployment in the Empire.
There is no prisons in the Empire.

Poor people can sell themselves to slavery to get money for their families.
If a person does a heinous crime, their whole family can go into slavery for it.

The threat of slavery means that there is a lot less crime within the Empire, especially since your whole family may pay the price for your transgressions.

Basically slavery is a quite different tool in a culture for peace and stability that needs a quite a stretch of imagination to actually understand.

Since we are in a serious lack of real Amarrians and solid cultural PF this is a bit of a handwaving thing. I doubt that you can count the difference between slavery and other ways of production with just simple math.

Too many variables.

I think that's a good point.

And that's also why I said that it was difficult to prove slavery to be inefficient or not in absolute terms. Too many variables and a lack of them to be really accurate.

However, the Caldari (and us) can find a good bunch of cons for the practice, indeed.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

I'd be skeptical that those 'hints' that 'the Amarrians [...] have chosen to regress technologically' are really such hints. They are hints that can be interpreted as such, but that doesn't mean that there aren't other possible interpretations. Also, that implant technology in the Empire didn't develop for ages in the Empire seems to be pure speculation to me. Just because there isn't explicit statement that there has been R&D in that filed doesn't mean that there wasn't, as there is no explicit statement that Inherent Implants sits on the same designs for millennia by now either.

I think the important point for this topic is not whether slavery is economically beneficiary for the Empire or which other benefitsthe institution of slavery might have to the Empire. Really important is for the Caldari which benefit it would have for them. Given the system they have, slavery offers little if no benefits to them while having high investment costs. So, the Caldari are against installing something like it in the State.

That they don't allow Amarr to bring their slaves along might simply be explained by the fact that they subscribe very much to a "If you are in Caldari space, you do as the Caldari do!" policy.

[Khloe]

I think this is a better subject to debate in-character than OOC.

[Ciarente]

I think the important point for this topic is not whether slavery is economically beneficiary for the Empire or which other benefitsthe institution of slavery might have to the Empire. Really important is for the Caldari which benefit it would have for them. Given the system they have, slavery offers little if no benefits to them while having high investment costs. So, the Caldari are against installing something like it in the State.

That they don't allow Amarr to bring their slaves along might simply be explained by the fact that they subscribe very much to a "If you are in Caldari space, you do as the Caldari do!" policy.

However, the Caldari also consider the affairs of other nations their own business, as long as it does no direct harm to the State. As a result, the Caldari find no difficulty in being allied with the Amarr Empire and Khanid Kingdom. They may believe those nations would serve as better trading partners should they abolish slavery, but they wouldn't presume to meddle with their society.

So yes, the Caldari think its up to the Amarr and Khanid whether or not they keep slaves; but no, they also think slavery is economy inefficient in those places as well.

In addition, in relation to Pieter's point about living conditions, it's actually the same paragraph of the same article that makes both points:
"The Caldari State is ranked second for average quality of living when compared with other empires on an absolute basis. This is mostly measured in access to services rather than personal wealth or comfort. The ubiquitousness of State authorities means that all corporate-controlled territories have the same levels of infrastructure. Though the size of Caldari residences are on par with slave quarters in the Amarr Empire (with unmarried individuals living in dormitories) and similarly bare of any luxuries"

I think it's important to remember that none of the articles on demographics talk about median living standards, just the mean.  I would imagine it's quite plausible for a Caldari citizen to assert that their system is better than the Federation's even though average living standards are lower, for example, because (in this argument: not trying to assert it's How Things Are OOCly) the Federation average is skewed upwards by the Alpha cities, and thus doesn't reflect conditions for the great bulk of the Federation.