Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Seriphyn]

Topic question. Seri IC proposed a solution where the CEP appointed the Caldari Prime governments but the civilians of the planet resume their pre-110 lives as normal. De jure Caldari administration versus de facto Gallente inhabitance.

We know, from the latest chronicle, that the Caldari Prime are 'barely holding' onto the planet, presumably because of an active insurgency (lives in the cities go on as normal, rebels control the countryside). Also from a while back, Mens Reppola denounced the occupation, and the Practicals weren't that keen on it either.

So just a curious question to ye all Caldari roleplayers. Are your characters towing the line (which fits, points for that), or do your characters and by extension your players genuinely believe it should be State territory? If so, why? What practical benefits might this lend the State, considering the planet is primarily Gallentean in origin (billions of), and that even the native Caldari there likely want nothing to do with the State?

I'm going to guess that Caldari characters are just towing the party line regardless of personal belief, which is quite cool RP if I do say so myself.

[Mithfindel]

At least for my more Patriot-minded character, it's the simple question of the Right Thing. Is the occupation practical? Not very. And with the exile, the Caldari State abandoned Caldari Prime, so the legality of the occupation is slightly questionable, at least by modern international law. None of the Caldari have ever lived in there (perhaps save some very old veterans), but at least the Patriots have been taught that it is Home.

I can kind of relate to the sentiment, since my family (from the father's side) is from the Karelian Isthmus (their hometown is current part of Leningrad Oblast, Russia). I do recognize that it would be really impractical to have the territory returned, there's a good number of Russians living there, and additionally, the Soviets essentially wrecked the place (well, I assume that didn't happen with Caldari Prime - though on the other hand, the largest Russian port in the Baltic is in what was the Finnish muncipality of Koivisto). However, I do have an uncle whose opinion on the current inhabitants involves automatic weapons, and there are quite a few Finns (still a minority) who would very much like to see the territory peacefully returned. (It'd probably wreck our economy and either cause Finland to have a huge Russian minority and/or barbaric Stalinesque migrations.)

[Silas Vitalia]

I think it's more an emotional and philosophical point of contention.   The emotional and nationalist pull of reclaiming the homeworld likely outweighs any practical difficulties.

Practicality has never stopped empires from fighting over hunks of rock with no absolute strategic purposes.  (looking at you, China and Japan and the little rocks in the Pacific)

[Sepherim]

It also gives a sense of purpose, a union. The Gallente have the perfect equilibrium of freedom as their utopia, the Republic the tribal society, the Amarr believe in God's world come to space. The Caldari lack an utopia of their own (more money to the corps is not an utopia!), and Caldari Prime can be it.

[Lyn Farel]

Practicality has never stopped empires from fighting over hunks of rock with no absolute strategic purposes.  (looking at you, China and Japan and the little rocks in the Pacific)

Actually the Senkaku islands have some economic resources in the territorial waters implied.

However I suspect like you that it's mostly for other reasons the conflict happened.

[Kohiko Sun]

Wellllll... it's good manners. Achura were the only ones not chased from their race's homeworld by the Federation. It's not like you want to walk into a room of Civire, Deteis, and exiled Intaki and accidentally give them a sad because you're the only one who still has one.

Oh, she's privately very critical of a certain Executor and his cronies. Ko doesn't have ancestral or emotional connections to the world. There was groaning and feeling sick over the invasion. (Okay, that last bit did have some satisfied revenge smugness for Malkalen. <.< )

But she does firmly believe Caldari Prime is the State's and was literally robbed at gunpoint. Her heart swelled with pride at the thought of the fleet with ships from every megacorp and the navy arriving in orbit, the many being one. The children of Raata deserve the opportunity to have their home back on their own terms. Their ancestors are there waiting for them.


(Plus! Taking it back got the Patriots to stop crying into their hak'len all the time. Bonus!)

[Vikarion]

Vikarion is a patriot, and he hates the Gallente, both because he despises their society and their - as he sees it - imperialism, both historically and currently. He also sees the State as having been continually victimized by the Federation, with Caldari Prime as the ultimate symbol of that. So it's not so much that he wants just Caldari Prime, he also wants the pride and arrogance of the Federation completely broken.

[Matoko]

It would be the same thing to ask a German why they would want Berlin back if it was occupied by the French. Or asking a Russian why they would want Moscow back if it was occupied by the US. It isn't necessarily strategic; it's about principle.

Now, if it's a good idea or not is another question entirely. I can see the more practical Megas looking at Caldari Prime and then looking at all the issues associated with "reclaiming" it, whereas a hardline Patriot won't even consider what they'd do once they actually captured it. Or utilize the previously mentioned simple solution of turning automatic weapons on the current non-Caldari populace.

Personally, I would love to see the Federation return the planet in a peace gesture with the State, but that's because I'm a hippy at heart and just want to see folks get along.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

Pieter is less a warmonger than he is a staunch traditionalist. Given his complete lack of family, and the musical-chairs that attempting to find a corporate employer to be loyal to has devolved into, he uses tradition as his anchor to the State.

Whilst he doesn't know who his ancestors are, they are clearly buried on Caldari Prime. The Winds that his Wayist principles use as a touchstone are also to be found there. All in all he'd rather see the whole of Black Rise surrendered than budge on the issue of Home!

And really, asking someone why they would like to keep their Homeworld?

[Katrina Oniseki]

Wouldn't any other race want their homeworld back if they were kicked out of it? Even the Gallente would want Gallente Prime back. What if the situations were reversed? What if the Caldari kicked the Gallente out of Luminaire?

I sometimes hear characters say that it wouldn't matter because the Federation is an idea, not a collection of planets. I think that's just a tagline, honestly.  I have a hard time believing that OOC, and Katrina just laughs at that notion IC. If the Gallente lost Luminaire, and Gallente Prime with it to the Caldari... I don't think they'd let it go so easily.

[Desiderya]

We know, from the latest chronicle, that the Caldari Prime are 'barely holding' onto the planet, presumably because of an active insurgency (lives in the cities go on as normal, rebels control the countryside).

That is a huge presumably, because the chronicle hints at nothing of the such, aside saying that they are stretched far. I'd interpret it that still the only thing between the federation and the planet is the strikeforce in orbit.

[Davlos]

It's very similar to asking why China still harps on Taiwan and the whole One-China thing.

It's also similar to asking why there are some militant Jews out there who support Israel no matter what, and regard Palestinian Arabs as mere cockroaches to be eradicated so that they may reclaim the land of Israel.

[Sakura Nihil]

Once you gain control of a place, live there for numerous generations, create a large amount of history, it begins to be viewed as "yours".  Same way that my fellow Americans and I transformed a continent with a rather large native population into a land where they're a very small minority in our vast society, and how this is viewed as "our land" now.

Possession, by whatever means, leads to ownership of territory.  It's the same reason why Mexicans still tend to harbor a grudge against the US due to the Mexican Cession that ended the Mexican-American War, where we took about 1/3 of their country.  That land, now the states of Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, Colorado, California, plus additional territory, are viewed by Americans as a part of our homeland, just as Mexicans see it as territory that is their own but was stolen from them.

Until the population that harbors the sentiments vanishes or otherwise forgets, they'll always want to reclaim what they see as "theirs".  For similar examples around the world, see the islands north of Hokkaido, Japan that Russia owns, or Taiwan/China, or Palestine/Israel, or Russia and the Baltic States, etc.

From the EVE perspective, you see this in Amarrian glances towards Matari territory that they were forced out of, or Caldari Prime from both the (current) Gallente and (prior) Caldari sides.  People don't like putting down roots, and then getting evicted, they'll want action to take territory back - if it doesn't happen in a few generations though, things might settle into status quo, the whole "it's always been like this for us" point of view.

[Lyn Farel]

OOCly, IRL, I wouldn't care the slighest for some piece of land my ancestors lost centuries ago. Do I care for all the lands my country lost over the years ? Or gained ? Not really.

I might care if it was a capital though.

"Might". Depends on the time spent owned by someone else.

But heh, that's just me, and I know it is not the same for a lot of people. I can't help but finding that possession thing dumb since I can understand it (but not comprehend).

But that is a true fact and I am glad that Caldari patriots are here to make that feeling prevail from time to time.

[Desiderya]

I'm not caring in the slightest for territories lost after the world wars. I can understand that my grandmother does, but then that's confirming the fact that newer generations tend to be used to how it is and not how it was and therefore judge and feel differently. Needless to say there are some people who long for past times but gladly they are the minority.

However this situation is hardly the same as the Caldari question, seeing as they did not lose some territories but the cradle of their civilization and - over the centuries - the place where the majority of time was spent. Additionally we're talking about an exodus through force which can be seen as a rather excessive reaction to the secession. Of course, the terrorist attack fueled the fires but I am fairly sure that the federation's reaction is seen as unjust by the caldari, which is likely to reinforce these feelings.