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[Samira Kernher]

Specifically:
- If history is brought up, people love to just go right back to the Day of Darkness - which puts the guilt right back on the Amarr again.
- Because slavery is viewed as such a bad thing, the resounding response to this kind of arguement is a big shrug and a "So? We rescued some people. It's justified."
- A resumption of slave raids now will not likely be viewed as a genuine response to the Elder attack, but as a stand-alone event several years down the line.

Any non-liberal Amarr will not see the Day of Darkness as something to be guilty over. It is something to be proud of. Just because non-Amarr may view it as bad, doesn't mean that it makes us guilty. We're the Amarr Empire, we do what we do for God, the opinions of everyone else aren't important. We are the ones rescuing people, by Amarrian morality.

The only reason the Empire made concessions before was for the sake of its own survival. It had the Jove on one front, the Republic on the other, the Federation sitting in the back moving all the pawns, and the State too busy fighting for their own independence. Things have changed now. The Jove are gone and the State are our allies. While more liberal Amarr might certainly want to keep going with the concessions, the conservatives do not care about playing nice with the other Empires.

Because of all of this, a resumption of slave raids will significantly degrade the ability of Amarr and Minmatar RPers to interact in ways beyond "GRRRRR, YOU EVIL SLAVER!" and "GRRRR, YOU NASTY HEATHEN!" Much like how the addition of the inter-faction war in TEA steamrolled the factional differences into uniformity, the addition of an issue this deep and this fraught with contention - even OOC contention, as we have repeatedly seen - will pretty much steamroll the ability of the two factions to interact into uniformity.

And I don't know about the others here, but that's not very interesting to me.

Degrade? I don't agree. I don't see how being good and friendly with everyone is very interesting. Conflict is the spice of life. There is far too little conflict between RP characters in EVE as it stands. Everyone always wants to be friends, and that is boring. The war is good for igniting conflict between the players.

The only problem with the war is that at the same time as it started conflict between the factions, it killed the internal conflict within the factions. The best solution would be both external conflict and internal conflict. War with the other factions, and internal divisions between intrafactional groups.

Also, there's nothing wrong with opposing your faction ICly if your character would really be opposed to its actions. I'm sure even if the Empire started conducting slave raids openly again, people would still like Esna since he's such a huge liberal who would undoubtedly speak against it. That additionally encourages conflict between the conservatives and liberals, getting that internal conflict we need. Samira already finds Esna very heretical and thinks he's a bad Holder.

Also: Slave raids aren't necessary for the reclaiming to work, nor are slaves per se. The Empire is open to willing converts and has always been (The Khanid were mostly accepted as willing converts about at the time when Amarr started practicing slavery.) Amarr shouldn't break agreements it has made just to raid for slaves - Amarrian ethics place high value on righteousness and I'd think keeping agreements up is considered righteous. So, no, I don't think that slave raids are necessary to save souls (you can go a Pax Amarria route), they are just one possible way to go. At the moment, raiding any CONCORD signatory for slaves is, I'd claim, unrighteous by Amarrian standards.

This I agree with. The matter of law isn't something to break lightly.

On the other hand... God's law trumps man's law. If the two are opposed, then God's law takes priority (unless you're Khanid).

The problem here is that, while rationally the Amarr are kind of 'in the right' at the moment, the Matar are in the right by what most people feel to be right. Emotionally, the Matari have all the right to go against the Amarr, by whatever means. It's a difficult thing to shift a debate/discussion/argument from an emotional to rational - the other way aound it's far easier. One has to be careful not to give opening for the emotional "day of darkness, slavery & bitter tears of vitoc dependent children" division, if one wants to make a stand for Amarrian righteousness in the matter of the recent war.

Who cares if the Republic and other nations go all boohoo emotional? Their opinions do not matter. That's what I keep trying to point out. Why does everyone think we have to get people to like us? The Empire can have a backbone and stand for its principles in spite of the opposition.

Regarding the Kador Prime celebrations: It seems like a great way to boost public morale despite the actual militia situation.

This is how I'm seeing it. The reports aren't coming from Scope or another unbiased news source, they're coming from the official Empire press. Meaning it's almost certainly propaganda attempting to paint a picture that is completely different from what the reality is.

[Lyn Farel]

Silas, in response to your comments, I'd suggest you go re-read Nico's post here about why the "but the Matari attacked first!" line of thinking doesn't help very much.

Specifically:
- If history is brought up, people love to just go right back to the Day of Darkness - which puts the guilt right back on the Amarr again.
- Because slavery is viewed as such a bad thing, the resounding response to this kind of arguement is a big shrug and a "So? We rescued some people. It's justified."
- A resumption of slave raids now will not likely be viewed as a genuine response to the Elder attack, but as a stand-alone event several years down the line.

Because of all of this, a resumption of slave raids will significantly degrade the ability of Amarr and Minmatar RPers to interact in ways beyond "GRRRRR, YOU EVIL SLAVER!" and "GRRRR, YOU NASTY HEATHEN!" Much like how the addition of the inter-faction war in TEA steamrolled the factional differences into uniformity, the addition of an issue this deep and this fraught with contention - even OOC contention, as we have repeatedly seen - will pretty much steamroll the ability of the two factions to interact into uniformity.

And I don't know about the others here, but that's not very interesting to me.

Going back to the 'day of darkness' has increasingly low returns. The Republic is a nation state, signing treaties, signing the Yulai Accords, and is bound to act as a state entiry.  Signing treaties means giving up certain ghosts. 

A crude metaphor, but the current American fringe argument for Reparations for ancestors of victims of the American Slave trade hasn't exactly gained any traction; there is the (often distasteful) attitude of 'that was hundreds of years ago, time to get over it'

I imagine in New Eden there is a large portion of the Republic and the International community echoing the same things, and quick to criticize the Republic for breaking agreements as a member of the galactic community.  'That happened hundreds of years ago, you are a CONCORD member state, you are all grown up, it's time to act like a member state and mediate differences through the proper channels'

Plenty of room for RP give and take on this one without getting into 'rawr slaver rawr heathen'

The main issue with the Minmatar faction atm is that for me, it is believable to guess that most Minmatar do what most humans do in their lives : caring about themselves and their families. Politics come after. They may well be encouraged by political leaders to think that they should go free their "kin" (that has been enslaved for eons, so that's not really a kin anymore) in some far corner of space under the sovereignty of the amarrian bogeyman that they have never seen in their lives.

It is believable to guess that most Minmatar citizens just care about bettering their lives and accomodating with the very young age of the Republic, which should normally bring a LOT of internal tensions.

But how the Minmatar are portrayed in PF is always some variant of how they care for their lost kin, how they want revenge, etc. Sorry but to me, that's not how ordinary humans work, even in a different culture. That's why I like how people like Ava do in their usual RP.

[Publius Valerius]

tl;dr: Not saying we should cover up bad stuff and just write about good stuff. You can make slavery a good thing (or at least respectable) without abolishing it, and without whitewashing it. I just want some integrity in the orthodoxy, and moral police who will actually do their job of policing (Articio can't do everything...).

I agree, largely, though I would point out that as far as I understand the Speakers, they don't have much of a stake in such things as how slavery is conducted - they once had a more direct role as mediators, but nowadays they only interfere if the thing is Empire-shaking. They are securing the TC's influence against the Emperor, mostly. The institutions that are responsible for fair treatment of slaves are the TC and the Emperor (in that order, I think), with the MIO being the executive organ in that case, imho. The problem here is that the TC has been kept weak, at least since the heretic Karsoth grappled control over the Empire and then with Sarum leaving the seat of high deacon vacant. (Maybe if a case would be made to the Empress to fill that seat the Speakers would get involved. (: )

Also: Slave raids aren't necessary for the reclaiming to work, nor are slaves per se. The Empire is open to willing converts and has always been (The Khanid were mostly accepted as willing converts about at the time when Amarr started practicing slavery.) Amarr shouldn't break agreements it has made just to raid for slaves - Amarrian ethics place high value on righteousness and I'd think keeping agreements up is considered righteous. So, no, I don't think that slave raids are necessary to save souls (you can go a Pax Amarria route), they are just one possible way to go. At the moment, raiding any CONCORD signatory for slaves is, I'd claim, unrighteous by Amarrian standards.

"Raiding" systems that changed sovereignty from republican to imperial might work, though, it would be an Amarrian POW thing and depending on how it is delivered (e.g. the Amarr pushing CONCORD to give an heads-up to the cluster that says: "Yes, if those systems change souvereignty, it's for the holder of that sovereignty to decide what to do with it. That's what sovereignty means. That's why the Caldari were able to have their auction. The Amarr are entitled to slave-raid in their own systems.") I don't see it as such a big problem as Esna or some others here, especially if it's done smart by the Amarr.

As to playing the "we're in the right" card: Yes, that's a card one can play, but as Esna pointed out, no, it's not that simple. The day of darkness isn't like the American slave trade and such. People, at least in the Minmatar community of RPers aren't tired to bring up the day of darkness all the time, nor were the officails of the Republic to justify the Elder invasion. That you imagine that those arguments are oftentimes dismissed, especially by people in the Republic, is, sadly I think, your imagionation. The fact is that all the Minmatar and the Federals cling tightly to it as an easy way to bash the Amarr - players and NPCs alike.

The problem here is that, while rationally the Amarr are kind of 'in the right' at the moment, the Matar are in the right by what most people feel to be right. Emotionally, the Matari have all the right to go against the Amarr, by whatever means. It's a difficult thing to shift a debate/discussion/argument from an emotional to rational - the other way aound it's far easier. One has to be careful not to give opening for the emotional "day of darkness, slavery & bitter tears of vitoc dependent children" division, if one wants to make a stand for Amarrian righteousness in the matter of the recent war.

Emotion, in a public debate, usually beats rationality. vOv That's how it is and that's why usually, not the rational position wins the day. And that is the real challenge of Amarrian RP: The Amarr will never sway the western player by emotion, so they need to employ reason and rationality in their arguments. If they don't, they devolve usually into "well, we're against slavery, too" or "being the bad boy is oh so cool *mustache-twirl*". (And no, evil Amarr aren't cool, usually, the pirate factions are at least much better at that.)

+1 I bold the important part. First, so that I  can link to this comment in further discussion. As it is here nicely put and in better words as I ever would found. Secondly a plus one for that it is a TRUE statement.


____________________
Maybe a off topic question. As we see or I see it: We have four story arcs now in the Amarr bloc?
-"Yonis Ardishapur Arc" 1 2
-"Aritcio Kor-Azor Arc" 1 2
-"Merimeth Sarum Arc" 1
-"Uriam Kador Arc" 1 2


Have I miss a news? And has someone already a Idea how they tie together?

[Lyn Farel]

It's odd. I keep seeing players from the Amarr bloc posting about how the Empire doesn't conduct slave raids anymore.

I can only assume those of you with this opinion haven't looked through the mission write-ups with Amarr as the opposition. There is more than one mission sequence that portrays Imperial ships guarding slave compounds that have been filled by Caldari run slave raids. The targets involved drop navy tags and are the main source of same for LP store offers in the Republic & Fed.

Now I'll grant you that it is possible that these are either unsanctioned or semi-sanctioned, but they do happen, at least if mission based content is to be believed. As I recall the main article on slavery also makes it clear that authorised imperial slavers sometimes aren't too fussy about who they buy new stock from.

I'm sure the Republic & Fed are up to equally nasty stuff. But the Empire's hands are anything but clean in this respect.

I don't think a lot of Amarr players make the actual claim that the Empire doesn't conduct slave raids anymore.

They however claim usually that the ones doing it are probably rogue elements (since its criminal).

[Esna Pitoojee]

 

Degrade? I don't agree. I don't see how being good and friendly with everyone is very interesting. Conflict is the spice of life. There is far too little conflict between RP characters in EVE as it stands. Everyone always wants to be friends, and that is boring. The war is good for igniting conflict between the players.

The only problem with the war is that at the same time as it started conflict between the factions, it killed the internal conflict within the factions. The best solution would be both external conflict and internal conflict. War with the other factions, and internal divisions between intrafactional groups.

Also, there's nothing wrong with opposing your faction ICly if your character would really be opposed to its actions. I'm sure even if the Empire started conducting slave raids openly again, people would still like Esna since he's such a huge liberal who would undoubtedly speak against it. That additionally encourages conflict between the conservatives and liberals, getting that internal conflict we need. Samira already finds Esna very heretical and thinks he's a bad Holder.

The problem with having to much conflict, however, is it tends to divide people into small islands. If, for instance, I had to choose between continuing meaningful interaction with the Amarr RP community and the rest of the RP community, I honestly wouldn't know which to go to, because both have their good days and their days that make me want to thud my head into the wall repeatedly. And since neither is large enough for me to only interact during the 'good moments', whichever option I choose to go with, I will inevitably end up with a huge portion of my interaction cut off.

The problem here is that, while rationally the Amarr are kind of 'in the right' at the moment, the Matar are in the right by what most people feel to be right. Emotionally, the Matari have all the right to go against the Amarr, by whatever means. It's a difficult thing to shift a debate/discussion/argument from an emotional to rational - the other way aound it's far easier. One has to be careful not to give opening for the emotional "day of darkness, slavery & bitter tears of vitoc dependent children" division, if one wants to make a stand for Amarrian righteousness in the matter of the recent war.

Who cares if the Republic and other nations go all boohoo emotional? Their opinions do not matter. That's what I keep trying to point out. Why does everyone think we have to get people to like us? The Empire can have a backbone and stand for its principles in spite of the opposition.

While IC their opinions might not matter, the fact remains that we as OOC players desire interaction with other RPers. If that interaction can be summed up as "GRRR YOU ARE TEH BAD GUYS" "NO YOU ARE WORSE BAD GUYS" then that's about as fun to me as sitting in a sandbox banging forheads with the other kid in it: Even if he falls over first, you're left with a huge headache and nobody to play with anymore.

Already it is frustratingly difficult to play an Amarr when many discussions end up with the other side going, "yes, but SLAVERY SLAVERY SLAVERY SLAVERY DAWKINS SLAVERY DAWKINS". Even if the Amarr "stand up" as you put it - a description I find highly inaccurate to begin with - then what kind of a response do they have? "Well, we disagree! So there!" ? How does that serve to perpetuate an interesting discussion?





@ Arnulf -

Given that both written PF (evelopedia, chronicles) and in-game text describe the Empire as no longer engaging in slave raids, I regard those missions as a case of gameplay/storyline segregation, much like the fifty million Damsels and whole NPC fleets being annihilated by a single capsuleer: Raids for slaves do occur in the Republic; they are not, however, done by authorized, large wings of national navies.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

First, it is like Esna says: banging my head against the other child's until he falls over and I have an headache isn't fun. We already have enough of that. I've been around for quite some time and we had enough of the "I am right and I don't care if you don't agree, you're stupid anyway."-type.

Second, of course the Amarr care about what the others think. After all, every interaction of the Amarr aims at convincing the others that the Amarrian view is the right one. You don't convince others by just shrugging off that they don't agree. That kind of thinking leads straight to working slaves to death: After all, you don't mind what those heathens are thinking and they are lost anyway... Bu ah, wait a moment there:

It does matter what those slaves hold to be true, doesn't it? They should be lead to accept God and the Amarrian religion, right? And the same is true for those foreigners living in their own states, no? They should be lead to accept the Truth as well, after all, right?

Right.

The Amarr under Heideran didn't make so much concessions as they were changing their strategy: Not caring too much for education lead down the road that it took with the Matari. They were exploited rather than educated. (By the way: Torture and punishment don't have value in themselves to the Amarr, they are tools to strip someone of a negative behaviour and recondition them to a positive; torturing and beating a slave for no other reason than 'hardship leads to enlightenment' is wicked and evil even by Amarrian standards, I'm quite sure.)

So, Amarr try to educate all heathens (and re-educate heretics, if possible), whether they are slaves or not. The Reclaiming isn't something that is only conducted through slavery, on that we agree. And from that follows that every opinion counts and should be shifted towards accepting God. As the Amarr can't sway by appeal to emotion (they might be potentially able as they did this certainly with the Khanid, but at the moment it's blocked by "Derp we failed with the Matari", they are stranded with rational argument: A bit like Thomas Aquinas with his Summa contra gentiles.

Amarrian education isn't induction into fanatic zealotry, not among the Amarr. Zealotry, at least of the mindless kind, is for some of the Khanid cults (or worse: heretics). Amarrian education certainly aims at instilling adherence to the tenets of their religion, but in a sophisticated way. Amarr, aim to get their science and religion into one synthetic and comprehensive system. After all, the Amarr are the best educated people of New Eden, not merely the best indoctrinated ones.

So, the Amarr know that a war isn't simply won by force, but by winning over the peoples minds and hearts. Slavery breaks someone, then wins over their hearts by building them up again and after several generations you get into their minds as well. All that is well and good if you can overwhelm someone by force. That's not the case at the moment, though and the Amarr are smart enough to realize that. Also: If you can win someone's mind over to the point where you get a hold of them and therefore their hearts that's even better. No one got elevated to holder status for enslaving Udorians. An entire royal family arose from the coup of winning over the minds and hearts of the Khanid people.

P.S.: And yes, rogue elements within the Empire appear to conduct raids - that is criminals. That is to say it's not the Empire (in general). At least, that's the only interpretation that reconciles PF with itself in a non-contradictory way.

[Mitara Newelle]

Enough talk.

Burn the CONCORD treaties.
Release the slave ships. 
Reeducate and bring the heathens into the fold of the one true god. 
What the other empires think is meaningless.

* Mitara Newelle awaits to go down in a blaze glory defending Athra.

[Samira Kernher]

Enough talk.

Burn the CONCORD treaties.
Release the slave ships. 
Reeducate and bring the heathens into the fold of the one true god. 
What the other empires think is meaningless.

* Mitara Newelle awaits to go down in a blaze glory defending Athra.

Hear, hear!

I love you, Mitty.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

Incidentally.

It seems a lot of you are operating on the assumption that the Empire's higher nobility really are true followers of the faith. My impression is that above a certain level the religion is seen as a useful form of social control rather than truth. Of course there are fanatics, but my impression is that they are the exception rather than the rule.

I see your Imperial zealots as being more from the lower, middle and minor noble classes.

On an entirely different note. The imperial faith seems to excel at producing really weird, cranky heretic groups. Just how variant does a group's opinions have to be before the Theology council goes all Torquemada on them? In your individual opinions of course.

[Laerise [PIE]]

Incidentally.

It seems a lot of you are operating on the assumption that the Empire's higher nobility really are true followers of the faith. My impression is that above a certain level the religion is seen as a useful form of social control rather than truth. Of course there are fanatics, but my impression is that they are the exception rather than the rule.

I see your Imperial zealots as being more from the lower, middle and minor noble classes.

On an entirely different note. The imperial faith seems to excel at producing really weird, cranky heretic groups. Just how variant does a group's opinions have to be before the Theology council goes all Torquemada on them? In your individual opinions of course.

Mh, lets see here, two heirs are zealots - I'd say thats a pretty decent percentage

To answer the second question: There are two criteria the TC is going to judge by.

First: Does the subcult upset the social and power balance inside the empire?

Second: Does the subcult diverge sufficiently from the dogma pronounced by the TC to threaten the dogma and/or lead to a drift away from the dogma.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

It seems a lot of you are operating on the assumption that the Empire's higher nobility really are true followers of the faith. My impression is that above a certain level the religion is seen as a useful form of social control rather than truth. Of course there are fanatics, but my impression is that they are the exception rather than the rule.

One can be a true follower of a faith without being a fanatic, no? One can see religion as useful form of social control and as truth, maybe even that it's usefulness and truth are even interrelated, no?

Also, Mitty employs emotional address to deflect rational argument. Well, there is still hope people up the rungs in the Empire aren't deaf to reason. ;P

[Silas Vitalia]

If the Federation is busy ballroom dancing with the State, then they aren't going to be available to assist their Matari client state.

Time to release the hounds. Time for the Empire to bring the old-school biblical wrath to the Republic.   Babylon-5 Centauri style vs the Narns.

 

[Laerise [PIE]]

If the Federation is busy ballroom dancing with the State, then they aren't going to be available to assist their Matari client state.

Time to release the hounds. Time for the Empire to bring the old-school biblical wrath to the Republic.   Babylon-5 Centauri style vs the Narns.

Londo, the tragic hero. Makes me shed a tear each time I watch it. 

[Nicoletta Mithra]

The thing about the Centauri and the Narn is, the Centauri are the hounds and the Shadows keep them on a leash...

[Laerise [PIE]]

The thing about the Centauri and the Narn is, the Centauri are the hounds and the Shadows keep them on a leash...

That is, of course, until Londo decides to press the button