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[Seriphyn]

http://community.eveonline.com/news/newsFromEve.asp?of=true&newsTitle=anti-provist-rally-sparks-civil-unrest-on-malkalen-v

Seems to note that the Caldari, at least Ishukone, have the concept of not only 'freedom speech' but 'civil rights' too (as opposed to legal rights). Caldari Mary Sues - Ishukone! Play Caldari badasses without all the nasty fascist bits!

Just noting some of the OOC reactions to this article, and wondering. Just curious, but why is this seen as an automatically GOOD thing that there's free speech in the State?

[Gesakaarin]

I believe the comments in OOC at least from Falcon implied that the concept of free speech or civil rights was a direct function of Megacorporate law and that how it is in fact defined varies between them. (Might be wrong).

The real issue, at least for Caldari in that article, is not the fact Ishukone corporate law has "Free Speech" but rather that the CPD had directly violated the law of a CEP member and what is more or less a "Sovereign Entity" within the State itself, at least.

[Jev North]

If it wasn't there before, this might be an attempt at the actual creation of a right to free speech by those silly Liberals. Exciting times!

[Ciarente]

I believe the comments in OOC at least from Falcon implied that the concept of free speech or civil rights was a direct function of Megacorporate law and that how it is in fact defined varies between them. (Might be wrong).

The real issue, at least for Caldari in that article, is not the fact Ishukone corporate law has "Free Speech" but rather that the CPD had directly violated the law of a CEP member and what is more or less a "Sovereign Entity" within the State itself, at least.

+1

[orange]

Or IW is hiring Gallente High School dropouts for the public relations division.

The statement frustrates the hell out of me.

If an Ishukone employee made a statement like "Ishukone is dumping toxic chemicals on ...," his statement would be interrupted at that point as the IW hauls his ass off.

The real issue, at least for Caldari in that article, is not the fact Ishukone corporate law has "Free Speech" but rather that the CPD had directly violated the law of a CEP member and what is more or less a "Sovereign Entity" within the State itself, at least.

+100  :  What happens in Ishukone's territory is Ishukone's responsibility. *megacorporation may vary

I believe the comments in OOC at least from Falcon implied that the concept of free speech or civil rights was a direct function of Megacorporate law and that how it is in fact defined varies between them. (Might be wrong).

Then it isn't a concept of "free speech."  It is a concept of "protected speech" and there is a nuanced, but important difference.

[Silas Vitalia]

I Believe the State 'has' free speech, but practicing it in a public and contrary / protesting manor is just not done often for cultural and loyalty reasons.

[Seriphyn]

It could just be anti-Provist rhetoric, yeah, although using what EVE would identify as a 'Gallente' concept would be a strange piece of rhetoric to use against Provists.

Could also be translation issues. When the Caldari speak it, they mean protected speech, as orange pointed out.

If we take a mile with the inch of 'free speech', and assume Ishukone's 'Liberal' leanings means 'Classically Liberal', then they're also believe in freedom of the individual, as they do the free market, and so forth. If we take that stretch, how on earth do they fit in the State? Considering the Caldari are portrayed as relatively united, having liberty-minded Caldari existing in the same space as authoritarian legalist ones is a bit mindboggling. But again, that's just a stretch. IMO I think Ishukone 'Liberal' means liberal to the free markets, not liberal as in liberty.

[orange]

I Believe the State 'has' free speech, but practicing it in a public and contrary / protesting manor is just not done often for cultural and loyalty reasons.

Then the Empire has "free speech," but practicing it in a public contrary/protesting manner is just not done often for cultural (ie wanting to avoid burning in hell) and loyalty (ie not wanting to get shot in the face on the way to hell) reasons.

I think Ishukone 'Liberal' means liberal to the free markets, not liberal as in liberty

Yes

[Ciarente]

The Liberal faction also believes in " generally cooperative relations with foreign powers ... [and]  fair treatment for all, both within the State and without"

[Seriphyn]

That depends how the Liberals define 'fair treatment'. There may also be a dichotomy between how the Caldari leadership and how the Caldari people see things. The Caldari leadership can be broken down into three blocs, but I'm not sure the Caldari people can be too. I don't remember where it was, but there was a reference the three blocs regard foreign trade policy, not necessarily domestic policy.

If so, then those living under Ishukone might as well move en masse to the Federation, if they really want to embrace liberalism in the holistic sense. But we know that's not true. It just seems contradictory that the Caldari are a united people that embrace authoritarian legalism, militarism, collectivism, and unquestioning loyalty, yet Ishukone Caldari are the complete opposite of that (freedom of speech does no favours to unquestioning loyalty after all). Maybe it's supposed to be paradoxical, but eh, I was sort of enjoying the contrasts more than the similarities between the Fed and Caldari.

Thing is, Fed liberty-liberalism is portrayed as having problems with divisiveness and disunity. If Ishukone embrace liberty-liberalism too, yet have no problems with divisiveness and disunity, then I'd wonder if the Caldari were wired differently to normal humans. Classical liberalism is about putting the individual first. But the Caldari don't do this.

EDIT: Oh, I'd also add that the Fed govt has also historically been into "fair treatment for all" and "generally cooperative relations with foreign powers". This doesn't make them the good guys, nor does it make Ishukone the good guys either. Both are doing it for their own benefit, and realize it's a pretty cloak to go in with.

[orange]

The Liberal faction also believes in " generally cooperative relations with foreign powers ... [and]  fair treatment for all, both within the State and without"

And the contrast would be that Patriots generally are uncooperative with foreign powers and do not care about the treatment of others outside the State.

It is fairly straightforward to argue that the Patriot and Provists ideal envisions fair treatment of all Caldari within the State.   Heth entered power and began a series of reforms to establish a meritocratic oligarchy, where previously existed a nepotistic oligarchy.  Problem with revolutions is that they often fail to achieve their aims, merely replacing the actors and we have never gained real insight into how the reforms have played out (may need to try and push for a bit of news there for Lai Dai).

[spoiler]

The Lai Dai Corporation and its employees remain stunned at the unraveling occurring throughout the State.  One mid-level executive, having risen through the corporation's ranks on his merit over the past 5 years had this to say "Lai Dai's management took to enacting the initial reforms with zeal.  Our records, achievements and demerits, are recorded and made public for the wider corporation to see.  I got where I am today by being part of successful teams and helping to lead those teams.  I and the teams I built have been recognized repeatedly for that.  I just don't understand how they failed elsewhere."

In addition, LDPS's stellar-modelling division failed to predict the cascade of events that have occurred over the past few days.  An LDPS spokesman said, "we lacked insight into Mito and the surrounding area.  Our models could not take into account the impacts of a CPD raid in the area and the outcome of that raid."

Lai Dai's leadership has been in catch-up mode since events began to unwind, attempting to gain a better picture of the future.

[/spoiler]

[Aelisha Montenagre]

IMO the Caldari have the right to say anything they like... if they can live with the consequences or have the clout to avoid the repercussions.  Freedom of speech seems to imply right, not necessarily accounting for ability.  On the flip side, Freedom to Speak or some other suitable name, means you can open your mouth and make noise, but you can be brought to book for the content, not necessarily accounting for necessity of said content. 

Consider it as the corporate system it is.  An employee of Apple, McD's or any other large chain can say whatever they like whenever they like, even railing against the company.  But they can be fired for such activity (there are usually specific clauses in employment contracts designed to prevent internal defamation and we all know how whistle blowing turns out, even when the whistle blower has every reason to speak out).  The difference here is that your job, is your citizenship in the State.  If you think someone will pick you up, or you can go it alone, all steam ahead (provist jackboots taken out of the picture for a moment), otherwise it is a one way trip to outcast-ville, population poverty. 

That's my view on the matter anyway.  Who your bosses, bosses boss is, and how loud you shout, are the two main factors as to how many tonnes of bricks come hurtling towards those exercising their right to pass air over their vocal chords. 

[Seriphyn]

Ah, Aelisha has a very good outline.

Alternatively, the use of 'civil rights' and 'free speech' might just be trigger words since it's The Scope reporting.

[Gesakaarin]

Then it isn't a concept of "free speech."  It is a concept of "protected speech" and there is a nuanced, but important difference.

I think the Caldari in general may have what might be considered, "Whistleblower" laws which would fit in with the meritocratic ideal (internal corruption also affects the bottom line). However, how it is defined may vary from each mega and due to the fact that making public dubious corporate operations might affect share prices matters tend to be handled differently or in private in order to, "save face".

[orange]

The very use of the word law carries with it ideas in my mind that do not apply to the Caldari.

"Whistleblower laws" - really internal corporate efficiency regulations are all about routing out internal corruption and gaining efficiency within the corporation.   But "big State" isn't going to save you if you make your company/corporation look bad by going to the Scope with some juicy bit of dirt.