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[Silver Night]

Referring here to the official wiki article: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Caldari_State

Some interesting new information, particularly about the ethnic makeup of the State. I do find the cultural homogeneity across corporate lines that it suggests a bit hard to accept, though. It is in line with the whole simplifying of the State that came along with the rise of Heth, I suppose.

[Matariki Rain]

Good information, including answers to questions about language and ethnicity.

I found myself itching to edit it, though. Mostly that was for style or grammatical agreement, but there was the occasional "I don't think you meant what you wrote there":

Non-entity
The meritocratic and ultracompetitive nature of the State means there are just as many winners as there are losers.

Edited to say that I'd love to see this enhanced with age pyramids and some discussion of birth rate, births-per-woman and mother's-age-at-first-child. This might help us better understand the context of the tube child program, and its (apparent?) recent fall from grace. Was it brought about by actual population pressure (in which locations or castes?)? Was it some sort of Caldari Lebensborn experiment? What's the status of children whose parents are not married, or are such births simply not permitted? And given what this says about dormitory-dwelling single life I'm dead curious about outlets for sexuality, age at marriage, and all that.

[Seriphyn]

Isn't that homogenuity relative to other places though, esp. that a place like the Fed would throw the average high up? Britain seems pretty homogeneous to someone from India who has no insider knowledge for example.

[Matariki Rain]

Seri, if I had to pick one theme to take away from the article it'd be that the Caladari are really strong on being culturally Caldari. You take on their culture and single language or -- with only a few minor exceptions -- you don't count.

Why do you want to argue for more diversity there? I'm curious.

[Seriphyn]

Oh, I've always figured it to be like that Mata. I've just got bonked in the past for saying they're not really diverse compared to the other races...so guess I'm pandering.

[orange]

Seri, if I had to pick one theme to take away from the article it'd be that the Caladari are really strong on being culturally Caldari. You take on their culture and single language or -- with only a few minor exceptions -- you don't count.

Why do you want to argue for more diversity there? I'm curious.

Oh, I've always figured it to be like that Mata. I've just got bonked in the past for saying they're not really diverse compared to the other races...so guess I'm pandering.

There are at least 9 (megas+extracorporate org CN/CBT/etc) different cultures in the State, all of them appear to be Caldari from an outsiders perspective.   It isn't the same has having a different skin color, language, or religion, but there are still cultural differences.

[Gesakaarin]

I do find the cultural homogeneity across corporate lines that it suggests a bit hard to accept, though. It is in line with the whole simplifying of the State that came along with the rise of Heth, I suppose.

It might be me, but what I think the article implies is that cultural homogeneity and the racial component of being "Caldari" is inculcated by every Mega in the State to promote unity and uniformity which preceded Heth. Every Mega and political faction no doubt attempts to subtlety (or overtly at times) seek to define what being "Caldari" is to suit their own agendas and politics within and without the State.

That is currently less clear to players, since we're not actually experiencing contemporary Caldari culture and so aren't exposed to the same sort of media, advertising, social engineering and corporate strictures each Mega uses to define what it is to be Caldari in their own interest. For example, Wiyrkomi might in its media focus more on social conservatism, duty to the State and family values; whereas SuVee might emphasize ruthlessness, cunning and corporate darwinism to separate the weak from the strong in their own attempt to set the course in the dialogue of Caldari identity in the State. I think it's rather clear how important the media is in the State when Kaalakiota created an entire subsidiary in Echelon Entertainment just to counter Nugoeihuvei and get its own message across.

Currently though, Tibus Heth and the CPD simply place a stronger emphasis on the fact that to be Caldari culturally is to be Caldari in race (Traditional Deteis/Civire) which probably finds its strength in the fact that the State is the most racially homogenous society in New Eden and its understandable that such a form of nationalism would take root in a State that isn't multicultural to any degree.

Although I would agree, much of the more subtle aspects of the State during the cold war era seems to have been lost in all nationalist jingoism of Heth and the CPD but I don't think that makes it any less complex currently, just less apparent. The Caldari State remains one of those places where looking at it from the outside will just show the facade but ignores the varied undercurrents that exist beneath it with the differing Megacorporate outlooks, politics, social mores, history and traditions.

[orange]

Some interesting new information, particularly about the ethnic makeup of the State. I do find the cultural homogeneity across corporate lines that it suggests a bit hard to accept, though. It is in line with the whole simplifying of the State that came along with the rise of Heth, I suppose.

The article talks about homogenization occurring as part of the secession.  The "Norm" was established by the CEP then and in the past 200 years, it will have been defined and redefined by each mega's media machine.

[Gesakaarin]

This might help us better understand the context of the tube child program, and its (apparent?) recent fall from grace. Was it brought about by actual population pressure (in which locations or castes?)?

I always thought initially the tube child program was implemented during the earlier decades of the State due there not being enough workers and soldiers to fill all the positions required in the corporations and military so they artificially increased the birth rate through the program. There's little information though as to whether there was an independent State body that ran the program or if the Megas themselves ran their own programs - maybe both? If so, it might not be a continuous thing but only implemented "as required" by corporate leaders. I'd hazard a guess and say the Caldari prefer having children conceived naturally but they're pragmatic enough to reach for the tube program if the Megas feel they need to because it's a better option than having immigrant workers who can't or won't assimilate into the State system.

I think the latest tube program was cancelled because the State economy was shrinking and they no longer needed the same amount of workers projected. Actually, I think the CPD has a lot of disaffected tube children who grew up into adulthood when the State entered its recession and found out not only were they victims of social persecution (might have been placed in the same category as "half-breeds" and called "unnatural") but then also ended up unemployed due to the Megas having to cut costs.

Of course, we don't have transcripts of Heth's speeches but I suspect in some regards his vision of a "New Meritocracy" aims to be more egalitarian as regards tube children and half-castes (they no doubt constitute a significant portion of his popular support) so long as they adhere to whatever principles the CPD might regard as being pure Caldari.

There's also probably a very simple reason why single Caldari live in corporate dormitories: It's an incentive to get married and have children. Bigger flats are for married couples with lots of children who need all that space in order to raise them into the next generation of loyal workers and soldiers for the State. I think getting married and having children young is the rule rather than the exception in the State and there's probably a lot of pressure from family and society to make babies. Hell, there might even be career stigmas in not being married (Only married people with children can handle the burdens of further responsibilities in the corporate ladder. Single people are unreliable, irresponsible and will blow all their money gambling) so, even from a career perspective it's advantageous to get married.

Of course, that might lead to a lot of unhappy marriages so now I'm wondering if there's unwritten rules in the State governing how you should handle having discrete affairs with your colleagues because a divorce might be social and career suicide.

[Matariki Rain]

Those are the sorts of questions I'd started wondering about, too.

As for tube children, I refer you to an earlier discussion here about when tube children became a thing. Essentially, we're trying to read a lot into the brief description.

Old style: "Acutely away [sic] of the small population of the Caldari State in comparison with the sprawling Gallente Federation, the Deteis have for decades utilized artificial procreation to increase their population. These tube-children are then raised in inhospitable, State-run orphanages, making them tough and self-reliant."

New style: "Acutely aware of the small population of the Caldari State versus the sprawling Gallente Federation a generation ago, the Deteis once utilized artificial procreation to increase their population. While this program is no longer sponsored by the State, the Tube Children of today were raised in inhospitable, government-run orphanages. Many are fiercely independent, strong individuals loyal to the Caldari State."

I've argued, based on these, that the tube program was running long enough ago to produce "our" generation but probably not "our parents'" generation. It could just be awkward wording, though.

[Gesakaarin]

I've argued, based on these, that the tube program was running long enough ago to produce "our" generation but probably not "our parents'" generation. It could just be awkward wording, though.

I'd tend to agree although the entire status of tube children is still rather ambiguous that almost any speculation about them sort of falls into the gap of, "Maybe" since there isn't any hard data on exactly when the program started, ended, and the percentage of Caldari in the State that were its progeny.

There's only the fact the program was no longer sponsored some time prior to the present date in New Eden for a few possible reasons that come to mind:

- Married couples asking, "What do you mean according to our DNA we're siblings?" (Awkward)
- Potential social maladjustment by tube children in wider Caldari society. (Might have been mitigated through foster programs.)
- Social stigmas in certain circles against "unnatural procreation" in the State.

Anyway, hopefully an Evelopedia entry might one day pop to clear away the ambiguities of tube children since it does form a significant background for many Caldari characters.

As for the topic at hand though, given this entry on the disassociated:

The second group includes those who've found themselves moving between two or three different corporations and who have in the process come to consider how thoroughly indoctrinated the average employee is. These individuals end up doing very well in non-standard careers or in unlikely places within the corporate structure, united solely by their lack of adherence to the standard caste ladder.

Is it me, or does that imply that in the State at least being a Freelance Capsuleer outside of the Megacorp. jurisdiction mean that you are viewed as being disassociated from the State itself (No longer directly employed by a Mega, under CONCORD not State oversight). It would explain why the State seeks to cordon off capsuleer freelancers - even Caldari ones - from the wider State community. I mean, as a capsuleer you're not exactly part of any caste in the State anymore, right?

Also, the article has a small typo or Tibus Heth has a time machine:

One of the more notable instances of this occurring was on Urlen II following Tibus Heth’s reclamation of Caldari Prime in YC105

[orange]

Use the talk page for edits.

[Jace Carithias]

I mean, as a capsuleer you're not exactly part of any caste in the State anymore, right?

The obvious exception to that being those actively involved in factional warfare, whether an individual member of the Protectorate or belonging to a member corp. It would seem those capsuleers would still be considered part of the military caste since the Protectorate is referred to as an "auxiliary" of the Navy.

As far as the cultural and ethnic aspect, the most revealing section to me was:

"Because of the megacorporations defining their subjects’ identities, the differences between the Deteis and Civire lay more in social habits, formal interactions, and philosophical approaches to being Caldari. They can not be considered distinct ethnicities like the other groups in New Eden."

Stating that they can not be considered distinct ethnicities and emphasizing social habits and interactions makes me view it as somewhat comparable to regional differences in nations. Pardon the US as an example, but for instance someone from New York has distinct behavioral differences from someone from New Orleans without any ethnic differences being necessary.

P.S. Hi! Joined a while ago, but never posted. Happy to be here.

[Matariki Rain]

As far as the cultural and ethnic aspect, the most revealing section to me was:

"Because of the megacorporations defining their subjects’ identities, the differences between the Deteis and Civire lay more in social habits, formal interactions, and philosophical approaches to being Caldari. They can not be considered distinct ethnicities like the other groups in New Eden."

Stating that they can not be considered distinct ethnicities and emphasizing social habits and interactions makes me view it as somewhat comparable to regional differences in nations. Pardon the US as an example, but for instance someone from New York has distinct behavioral differences from someone from New Orleans without any ethnic differences being necessary.

Quite possibly, although it does leave me wanting to ask the writer (and you!) what's intended by "ethnicity". Modern definitions are quite fluffy and can be entirely cultural (see the Wikipedia definition and discussion).

It sounds like the Caldari State includes "Caldari", Achura, and others. The "Caldari" come in two flavours which are generally seen as having different traits, strengths, and mythic ancestries: "fast and strong" Civire from Kivire's Fuukiuye people of the east, and "Wise", "calm and deep" Deteis from Deteaas' Oryioni people of the north. The two groups are discouraged from intermarrying. They share a language, a general culture, and a myth of origin about how their peoples came together (Cold Wind).

P.S. Hi! Joined a while ago, but never posted. Happy to be here.

Hello and welcome!

[Gesakaarin]

I mean, as a capsuleer you're not exactly part of any caste in the State anymore, right?

The obvious exception to that being those actively involved in factional warfare, whether an individual member of the Protectorate or belonging to a member corp. It would seem those capsuleers would still be considered part of the military caste since the Protectorate is referred to as an "auxiliary" of the Navy.

True, but I was considering more along the lines that just getting capsuleer implants in the first place might carry with it the same social stigmas among Caldari as being "Disassociated" since you no longer work directly for a Mega as a freelancer.

Although reading through that article I realized both my Caldari characters:

- Are capsuleers.
- Are tube children.
- Parents are divorced.
- One is Deteis but married to a Civire.
- One is SuVee but moved to Kaalakiota.
- One is a long time bachelor.

I mean damn they would be the subject of a lot of both subtle and overt prejudice and stigma in the State due to their backgrounds and life choices. 

Oddly though, I seem to find that interesting and wonder if other characters will pick up on it in the future.