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[Rok-Yuni]

Amarr droneboats are op. Arbitrator can field 50m3 more drones than a Vexor, gets more flexibility and an EWar bonus.
Sentinel can pretty much solo any other frigate out there, cause 17km neuts, tracking disruptors and holy fuck Don't get me started on the size of its dronebay.

So don't complain about Amarr droneboats, if there's one thing they need, it's a nerf.

They are pretty good yes, though I would never dare to engage a vexor with an arbitrator myself. Depends of the vexor ofc, if the vexor has no guns and only med drones, I would yes, otherwise, I wouldnt.

A vexor can take less drones yes, but at the same time it can field heavy drones while the arbitrator cannot. Of course it means for the vexor that you have a very specialized anti cruiser fit that will have less spare drones if something happens. But a 2 heavy, 2 med and 1 light drone vexor were pretty unbeatable for me when I started FW, when gallente droneboats were still quite famous for their versatility (can take frigates, cruisers, everything in solo).

to be honest, the most effectve pvp vexor setup i have used is basically a small version of the neut-domi. no guns, just neuts and vamps in the highs, quite effective against amarr boats, and even against matari and caldari boats it means they can't AB or MWD around you. which can be important when fielding even a single heavy drone.

There are ships out there that will do cap warfare FAR more efficiently, though as far as a standard t1 cruiser goes, it's a pretty versatile fit. Relies on good droneskills though as it is easy to get bogged down in a stalemate situation.

[kalaratiri]

All Hail the Mighty Attack Cruisers! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1936133#post1936133

Ok now on to the more anticipated cruisers in this rebalance pass. These are the faster and lighter of the fighting cruisers. They're mostly made from the former tier II cruisers, with the exception of the Thorax.

In some ways the gap between Attack and Combat cruisers mirror the gap in the frigate lines, although for cruisers we're not dividing the lines quite so sharply. These ships do have less EHP than the Combat cruisers that will be unveiled next, but you can still buffer tank them decently if you downgrade guns.

Alongside the announcement of these ships, we're also proposing some adjustment to the fitting requirements of certain medium sized turrets which will help us keep the fittings of several ships within better ranges as we go forward:
-Drop the powergrid usage of Focused Medium Pulse lasers by 5%
-Drop the powergrid usage of Heavy Pulse lasers by 10%
-Drop the powergrid usage of all cruiser sized beam lasers by 10%
-Drop the powergrid usage of all cruiser sized artillery by 10%

Details of the new gun fittings:
meta   Name   power   cpu
0   Focused Medium Pulse Laser I   115   28
1   Focused Afocal Pulse Maser I   115   25
2   Focused Modal Pulse Laser I   115   23
3   Focused Anode Pulse Particle Stream I   115   26
4   Focused Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I   115   22
5   Focused Medium Pulse Laser II   127   29
8   Ammatar Navy Focused Medium Pulse Laser   127   22
8   Dark Blood Focused Medium Pulse Laser   127   22
8   Imperial Navy Focused Medium Pulse Laser   127   22
8   True Sansha Focused Medium Pulse Laser   127   22
0   Heavy Pulse Laser I   190   33
1   Heavy Afocal Pulse Maser I   190   29
2   Heavy Modal Pulse Laser I   190   28
3   Heavy Anode Pulse Particle Stream I   190   31
4   Heavy Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I   190   26
5   Heavy Pulse Laser II   209   35
6   Joust' Heavy Pulse Laser I   171   26
8   Ammatar Navy Heavy Pulse Laser   209   26
8   Dark Blood Heavy Pulse Laser   209   26
8   Imperial Navy Heavy Pulse Laser   209   26
8   True Sansha Heavy Pulse Laser   209   26
0   Focused Medium Beam Laser I   135   30
1   Focused Afocal Medium Maser I   135   27
2   Focused Modal Medium Laser I   135   25
3   Focused Anode Medium Particle Stream I   135   28
4   Focused Modulated Medium Energy Beam I   135   24
5   Focused Medium Beam Laser II   149   32
6   Crossbow' Focused Medium Beam Laser I   122   24
8   Ammatar Navy Focused Medium Beam Laser   149   24
8   Dark Blood Focused Medium Beam Laser   149   24
8   Imperial Navy Focused Medium Beam Laser   149   24
8   True Sansha Focused Medium Beam Laser   149   24
0   Heavy Beam Laser I   225   35
1   Heavy Afocal Maser I   225   31
2   Heavy Modal Laser I   225   29
3   Heavy Anode Particle Stream I   225   33
4   Heavy Modulated Energy Beam I   225   28
5   Heavy Beam Laser II   248   37
6   Arquebus' Heavy Beam Laser I   203   28
8   Ammatar Navy Heavy Beam Laser   248   28
8   Dark Blood Heavy Beam Laser   248   28
8   Imperial Navy Heavy Beam Laser   248   28
8   True Sansha Heavy Beam Laser   248   28
0   650mm Artillery Cannon I   180   27
1   650mm Medium Carbine Howitzer I   180   21
2   650mm Medium Gallium Cannon   180   25
3   650mm Medium Prototype Siege Cannon   180   22
4   650mm Medium 'Scout' Artillery I   180   24
5   650mm Artillery Cannon II   198   28
6   650mm Medium 'Jolt' Artillery I   162   23
8   Domination 650mm Artillery   180   24
8   Republic Fleet 650mm Artillery   180   24
0   720mm Artillery Cannon I   225   30
1   720mm Carbine Howitzer I   225   24
2   720mm Gallium Cannon   225   28
3   720mm Prototype Siege Cannon   225   25
4   720mm 'Scout' Artillery I   225   27
5   720mm Artillery Cannon II   248   32
6   720mm Medium 'Jolt' Artillery I   203   26
8   Domination 720mm Artillery   225   27
8   Republic Fleet 720mm Artillery   225   27

Now onto the ships themselves:

Omen:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret capacitor use
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret rate of fire
Slot layout: 5 H, 3 M, 6 L (+1), 5 turrets
Fittings: 925 PWG (+195), 315 CPU (+65)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1200(+27) / 1700(+137) / 1600(+37)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1475(+225) / 526s(+79.75s) / 2.8
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 225(+44) / 0.51(-0.05) / 11650000 / 5.6s (-0.5)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 40(+30) / 40(+30)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 55km(+10) / 300(+7) / 6(-1)
Sensor strength: 15 Radar (+2)
Signature radius: 125
Cargo capacity: 400(-50)


Caracal:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus Rapid Light, Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile Launcher rate of fire
10% bonus to Light, Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile Velocity
Slot layout: 5 H, 5 M, 4 L (+2), 2 turrets, 5 launchers
Fittings: 630 PWG (+100), 430 CPU (+80)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1700(+137) / 1200(+145) / 1500(+171)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1250(+187.5) / 445s(+63.75s) / 2.8 (+0.02)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 225(+47) / 0.425 / 12910000 / 5.1s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 10 / 10
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 57.5km / 270(+28) / 6
Sensor strength: 16 Gravimetric (+1)
Signature radius: 135 (-10)
Cargo capacity: 450


Thorax:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage
7.5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret tracking speed
Slot layout: 5 H, 4 M (+1), 5 L, 5 turrets
Fittings: 820 PWG, 330 CPU (+30)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1200(-324) / 1600(-41) / 1700(+175)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1450(+75) / 490s(+25.25s) / 2.8
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 235(+55) / 0.49(-0.0658) / 11280000 / 5.2s (-0.7)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 50
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 52.5km(-2.5) / 280(+21) / 6
Sensor strength: 15 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 130(-10)
Cargo capacity: 465(+200)


Stabber:
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret firing speed
7.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret falloff
Slot layout: 6 H, 4 M (+1), 4 L (+1), 4 Turrets, 2 Launchers
Fittings: 715 PWG (+15), 340 CPU (+40)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1500(+15) / 1400(+150) / 1400(+111)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1200(+137.5) / 427.5s(+46.25s) / 2.8(+0.01)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 285(+54) / 0.5(+0.02) / 11400000 / 5.3s (+0.2)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5 / 5
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 47.5km(+7.5) / 320(+15) / 5
Sensor strength: 13 Ladar (+3)
Signature radius: 105
Cargo capacity: 420

Damn these look awesome. 4 low slots on the caracal, 4 mids on the thorax, and the stabber :O Nano Omen is also going to be glorious, and it should be able to fit a pretty decent armour tank too. Nice fitting buffs :3

[Lyn Farel]

The omen with all these new drones is going to be quite powerful.

I wonder if by reducing so much medium gun fitting requirements it is not going to boost indirectly BCs, that are already quite... OP on some points.

[kalaratiri]

It was mentioned. Fozzie replied with this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1936247#post1936247

and now this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1936476&

Glorious!

Hello everyone! we've got another F&I balance thread for you all, covering tentative plans for missiles in the Winter expansion plus a hurricane fittings nerf that doesn't really need it's own thread.

I'd like to start off by reminding people that everything in these F&I threads is open to changes, however there are some significant balance issues being dealt with here that will need to be solved in one way or another. There are also some details that remain to be ironed out but we wanted to get these ideas out to you all as early as possible.

I'll start off with the orphan announcement. In the Attack Cruiser thread we also announced changes to medium gun fittings. We're going to be changing the hurricane at the same time but I wanted that thread to stay dedicated to the specific cruiser balance instead of getting derailed so we're moving that here.
Since we planning to reduce the powergrid needs of all medium artillery by 10% across the board, we are also planning to subtract 225 PG from the Hurricane, leaving it with a base powergrid of 1125.
The upshot is that fitting a full rack of 720s with a MWD and LSE and full mids and lows will require a RCUII and either an ACR or PG implant. Also fitting a standard shield autocane with neuts and LSE will require dropping a few guns down to 220mm.

The meat of this thread however is about missiles. There's a number of missile changes we have planned for the Winter, including the already announced buff to light missiles, a nerf to heavy missile range and damage to put them in line with other long range cruiser weapons, a rework of all T2 missiles so they become usable, and the expansion of both tracking enhancers and tracking disruptors into the realm of missiles.

Light Missiles
-Explosion velocity reduced from 50 to 40
-Damage increased by 10% (rounded to closest digit)
-Affects all variant light missiles, including FOF.

Heavy Missiles
-Base flight time reduced by 30%
-Base velocity increased by 6.66%
-In total, base range reduced by ~25%
-Damage decreased by 20% (rounded to closest digit)
-Affects all variant Heavy missiles, including FOF.

Tech Two Missiles
-At the moment Fury missiles at Light and Heavy sizes have a faster explosion velocity than precision missiles, we'll be fixing this defect as part of the changes.
-Remove ship penalties from tech two missiles (ship velocity and signature radius)
Precision: Increase bonuses to explosion velocity and explosion radius, increase damage to match T1 missiles, reduce flight time slightly
Fury: Increase damage, increase penalties to explosion radius and velocity
Javelin: Just remove ship penalties
Rage: Reduce range significantly, increase damage slightly

Tracking/Range Mods and Ewar
-Modify tracking enhancers and tracking computers to affect:
Max flight time
Explosion radius and explosion velocity
-Make TDs affect Missiles
Tracking speed script lowers explosion velocity and explosion radius
Optimal range script lowers flight time

Fuck yeah.

[Gesakaarin]

AML Caracal just got better (Right now you need AWU IV/V just to fit MWD + Dual LSE/ASB). Might even be possible to fit the standard DC + 3x BCU in the lows now too.

Edit: Also, TD on everything!

[orange]

Read through the Heavy & T2 Missile stats & intro of TD effects on Missiles.  Read Drake Nerf, only missile ship people seem to ever use for PvP.  Is the Rook going to get a boost to be as effective as its other racial counterparts?  Do these changes help/hurt the Cerberus?  Etc etc etc.

Half of the Caldari line up is impacted by these changes.

[Morwen Lagann]

Changes all look decent aside from the Thorax hulls' loss of the MWD bonus.

For a ship that's dependent on a microwarpdrive just to get into useful range, and then has weapons that use a fair amount of cap, that's a pretty hard stab to the balls.

And no, an extra mid for a -small- injector and a couple extra GJ in the capacitor don't really make up for it.

[Saede Riordan]

Changes all look decent aside from the Thorax hulls' loss of the MWD bonus.

For a ship that's dependent on a microwarpdrive just to get into useful range, and then has weapons that use a fair amount of cap, that's a pretty hard stab to the balls.

And no, an extra mid for a -small- injector and a couple extra GJ in the capacitor don't really make up for it.

They did also increase its speed a bit, dunno if thats enough to make a difference

[Morwen Lagann]

It's not. MWDs use a lot of cap, and they nerf your capacitor right from the start. That was the whole point of that bonus - it offset that nerf and made it possible to use the MWD to close on a target that you weren't lucky enough to land on at zero and still have cap left over to shoot things with.

[Lyn Farel]

I have never had any trouble with my MWD on T1 cruisers to jump on someone that is not at range... It takes something like 1min+++ to deplete all the cap. If you are still running after a guy after 1 min, I don't know what you are thinking. 

The changes look good to me, I am also worried for the Rook and similar heavy missile based hulls. However, that's fun because the drake just lost its ability to run L4 missions.

[Desiderya]

Blaster Moa works with MWD these days without enormous cap or MWD bonus. Tracking bonus as a substitute doesn't look terribad to me.

Regarding Missiles:
Seems nice. The range nerf can be offset with TC/TE, the damage nerf might be mitigated by better t2 missiles that don't destroy your sig/speed. It's certainly not unreasonable, especially since comparable cruiser/non tier3 battlecruiser dps on that range (50+km) won't be stellar either.

However, that's fun because the drake just lost its ability to run L4 missions.

T2 drake should be able to do it, maybe even better than before since he's not going to have a torpedo sized sig with furies and it's going to be easier to get rid of frigs. Even if you drop the DPS by 20% and disregard fury changes, I've done L4s in a Raven with crappy cruise missile skills and probably worse DPS in my early days.

[kalaratiri]

Also TE affecting missiles is a steath buff for nagflar

Not just empty quoting.

[Desiderya]

Would be interesting to know if these changes affect all missiles or only guided ones.
Might make Torpedoes (and citadel missiles/torps) more interesting.

[Lyn Farel]

However, that's fun because the drake just lost its ability to run L4 missions.

T2 drake should be able to do it, maybe even better than before since he's not going to have a torpedo sized sig with furies and it's going to be easier to get rid of frigs. Even if you drop the DPS by 20% and disregard fury changes, I've done L4s in a Raven with crappy cruise missile skills and probably worse DPS in my early days.
[/quote]

Well yeah, my comment was a bit too radical. I just think the drake is going to get more limited DPS wise, not that he won't be able to run them anymore. I used to run L4s in crappy DPS BSes when I started too, and that took ages.

[Morwen Lagann]

Well yeah, my comment was a bit too radical. I just think the drake is going to get more limited DPS wise, not that he won't be able to run them anymore. I used to run L4s in crappy DPS BSes when I started too, and that took ages.

Solution: use HAMs instead. Problem solved, once the Drake gets its resist/kindmg bonuses changed to ROF/missile velocity. You can hit 900 DPS with HAM drakes as it is. The changes would make the things no less dangerous than they are now - arguably, they would make it more so.