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[Lyn Farel]

I do not find hardcore difficulty really appealing. To me it just feels like hassle, plain and simple. I don't mind something challenging, but that's something else.

Brutal difficulty is not the answer to me. Make cooperation needed, no need for much more. Well, reading you, as much as I share the same concerns about the blandness of most MMOs, I wouldn't like to play a game you designed. 

[Arista Shahni]

Once upon a time there was a hard MMO and this gamer lady said to her boyfriend, "I never in my life thought I would ever need to say this...  the fuckin' guild or me."

Those types of 'bachelor-makers' should be avoided - not just games that take time, but ones that cause undue stress to the player making them snappy fucking assholes who take it out on others.

[Vincent Pryce]

Once upon a time there was a hard MMO and this gamer lady said to her boyfriend, "I never in my life thought I would ever need to say this...  the fuckin' guild or me."

Those types of 'bachelor-makers' should be avoided - not just games that take time, but ones that cause undue stress to the player making them snappy fucking assholes who take it out on others.

You mean like EVE? 

[Arista Shahni]

Once upon a time there was a hard MMO and this gamer lady said to her boyfriend, "I never in my life thought I would ever need to say this...  the fuckin' guild or me."

Those types of 'bachelor-makers' should be avoided - not just games that take time, but ones that cause undue stress to the player making them snappy fucking assholes who take it out on others.

You mean like EVE? 

Not sure, I met the man I married in Otou.

Maybe it's different for major FCs though.  Not sure.  He is just a small gang warfare ex-pirate.

 Mainly I mean the stuff like you have to be online at X o'clock no matter what -- and not just the folks in null, but *everyone*, every player has lockout timers and raid timers and etc., not just people like here with millions/billions in assets in places, and in game dynamics where "helping guildies" can eat hours and hours of your day. That sort of behavior just doesn't happen often in EVE - likely because of the social dynamic.

I got real fucking tired of my ex not coming to bed for 4-5,6 hours nearly every frickin night cause he was on corpse runs for people in his monarchy (Asheron's Call).  He got the ultimatum.

[Morwen Lagann]

There's a reason Verone was heavily against 'alarm clock' ops whenever possible as far as folks in Veto went.

I only know of two such ops put on by the corp (big moves excluded) in the time I've known people who were in it, and I was there for both of them. I got lucky and was still in school at the time and could bend my schedule like that to accomodate. Not everyone else was.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Once upon a time there was a hard MMO and this gamer lady said to her boyfriend, "I never in my life thought I would ever need to say this...  the fuckin' guild or me."

Those types of 'bachelor-makers' should be avoided - not just games that take time, but ones that cause undue stress to the player making them snappy fucking assholes who take it out on others.

Blame the personality, not the game.  The inability to make effective and reasonable lifestyle choices is not the fault of the video game. It is the fault of the player playing the video game. Games don't turn people into snappy assholes or keep them away from their wives and children.

Unstable and addictive personalities that have difficulty prioritizing what is most important in life do.

[Lyn Farel]

Though it is still kind of sad that a game asks for that if you want to accomplish certain things.

[Vincent Pryce]

Once upon a time there was a hard MMO and this gamer lady said to her boyfriend, "I never in my life thought I would ever need to say this...  the fuckin' guild or me."

Those types of 'bachelor-makers' should be avoided - not just games that take time, but ones that cause undue stress to the player making them snappy fucking assholes who take it out on others.

Blame the personality, not the game.  The inability to make effective and reasonable lifestyle choices is not the fault of the video game. It is the fault of the player playing the video game. Games don't turn people into snappy assholes or keep them away from their wives and children.

Unstable and addictive personalities that have difficulty prioritizing what is most important in life do.

+1

[Vic Van Meter]

Once upon a time there was a hard MMO and this gamer lady said to her boyfriend, "I never in my life thought I would ever need to say this...  the fuckin' guild or me."

Those types of 'bachelor-makers' should be avoided - not just games that take time, but ones that cause undue stress to the player making them snappy fucking assholes who take it out on others.

You mean like EVE? 

Not sure, I met the man I married in Otou.

Maybe it's different for major FCs though.  Not sure.  He is just a small gang warfare ex-pirate.

 Mainly I mean the stuff like you have to be online at X o'clock no matter what -- and not just the folks in null, but *everyone*, every player has lockout timers and raid timers and etc., not just people like here with millions/billions in assets in places, and in game dynamics where "helping guildies" can eat hours and hours of your day. That sort of behavior just doesn't happen often in EVE - likely because of the social dynamic.

I got real fucking tired of my ex not coming to bed for 4-5,6 hours nearly every frickin night cause he was on corpse runs for people in his monarchy (Asheron's Call).  He got the ultimatum.

.

Raids?  Lockout timers?  I got into WoW because I was in school and switched to an EASIER game.  FFXI and its three-hour long bosses where you had to time your skillchain to within a second made 40 man raiding in vanilla WoW a vacation.

[Desiderya]

Though it is still kind of sad that a game asks for that if you want to accomplish certain things.

Maybe stop wanting to accomplish certain things if the necessary investment is too high?

[Shiki]

Maybe stop wanting to accomplish certain things if the necessary investment is too high?

Can confirm this happens to me in every MMO I try: a laundry list of content I will never experience.

I guess this is where roleplaying usually saves the day.

[Desiderya]

Often that content is: I will never see raid x, which takes 4 hours,  because I can't/won't play 4 hours straight in my evenings. Circular.
Often people want the same gear, despite only needing top tier stuff for... top tier stuff. It's about managing what you want, I guess.

[Jace]

Often that content is: I will never see raid x, which takes 4 hours,  because I can't/won't play 4 hours straight in my evenings. Circular.
Often people want the same gear, despite only needing top tier stuff for... top tier stuff. It's about managing what you want, I guess.

Cake. And sprinkles. And missiles that leave a trail of glitter. These are my wants, and I find them very well managed tyvm.

[Lyn Farel]

Though it is still kind of sad that a game asks for that if you want to accomplish certain things.

Maybe stop wanting to accomplish certain things if the necessary investment is too high?

Maybe. Though asking players to remain completely alert and at disposal at any hour smells heavily of weird game design imo. But heh, that's an interesting experiment.

[Arista Shahni]

Of course you can blame it all on addictive personalities.  (He wasn't my ex because I lost the decision making process, for reference.  He actually quit doing it once I demanded it).  Anyone can blame anything on anything.

EVE works basically the same way though, if you want supershiny you  need the ability/time to invest.  Some games have worse "alarm clocks" than others - Eastern MMOs are famous for them Rising Force was a bit insane with Chip War every 8 hours.. the logical reason is this way every time zone can participate in a chip war.  That's not how it works out once you combine humans into the programming.  Some games don't bother with it and do end up, to gamers "too easy", or not much of a game at all.  Different than balancing enjoyment with challenge and advancement in say, a tabletop GMing sort of way, computer games have profit margin stuffed into the calculation also.  Guess which one wins in importance.

And that's the deal, really.  People are as much a part of an MMO as the code, with all of their individual eccentricies and their common behaviors.  So when you look at something in a code and say "the player  should be more responisble" -- the coder made an opportunity specifically for a player to not be responsible because they added what translates as digital cocaine in ther hopes the subs would keep rolling in (and its well known what success does in the pleasure centers of people's brains -- game designers use gimmicks like that specifically for player retention, etc.  It's a formula that I wish I could find the paper that was written on it, but "fun" isn't even one of the variables.)

Being angry about the a viewpoint on the truth and throwing excuses is like being pissed at a friend for becoming an alcoholic when you always met him in the bar.   (edit: specially when we're all sitting in here bitching about the taste and price of liquor these days)

MMOs are designed: to get X dollars a month subscriptions, or get people to spend X dollars a month the cash shop.  The fun part is almost optional.