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That crews from destroyed capsuleer ships make up a substantial part of Blood Raider harvests? (The Burning Life, p. 59)

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Author Topic: Welp, there goes all the Elder Scrolls players from the EVE community...  (Read 34545 times)

Vikarion

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I can't really sign on with the more nostalgic view. While I didn't play Daggerfall, I did play the heck out of Morrowind, and while Morrowind was brilliant, it was also remarkably stupid at times. If I may be permitted only one instance, I remember that one of the main quest objectives was to escort a helpless (but extremely aggressive) Dunmer maid across a good third of the province, and not the safe third at that. By the time I got her (she also apparently suffered from some sort of condition that reduced her Speed attribute) to her prospective husband, I was less inclined to be the Nerevarine, and a bit more inclined towards a continent-sized genocide.

I also don't miss the Speed attribute from either Oblivion or Morrowind. Whose idea it was to have an attribute that is leveled up fairly slowly and is quite literally maddening to be without is beyond me. It's like having an attribute for fun, that you can only level up by punching yourself in the groin.

Perhaps I overstate the case, but I think not. Yet, there are more things I like about Oblivion and Skyrim, and I haven't lost the things from Morrowind I enjoyed. I loved, incidentally, the Oblivion gates - the first time I ran through one and found myself in an alien landscape, I quite literally stopped simply to drink it in. And I like Skyrim's dungeon's more than any previous game's: they are far less uniform and much more interesting.

Oh, and magic. Yeah, it's nice to not have to carry around a Daikatana if I want to kill anyone, it really is. I've always favored mages (preferably mages with heavy armor and a longsword, admittedly), and both Oblivion and Skyrim let me enjoy this to the, as it were, hilt.
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Creep

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I was less inclined to be the Nerevarine, and a bit more inclined towards a continent-sized genocide.
Wait, you mean the devs didn't intend for all the games to end this way?

...I think I've been playing TES wrong.
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Morwen Lagann

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For those who took the title of the thread seriously... you've been trolled, just saying. :P

Single-player series rarely transition well into MMO format. That's kind of a given. >_>
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2) Most of the former group appear lesbian due to a lack of suitable male partners to go around.
3) The lack of suitable male partners can be summed up in most cases thusly: interested, worth the air they breathe, available; pick two.

Caellach Marellus

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These days, though, if I hear 'MMO' then I think turgid by-the-numbers WoW clone. BORING. And you know what? That always proves to be the case. Sure, millions of people have subscribed for WoW, but it's still a fucking awful game. Millions of people can be wrong and they often are. Wisdom of the crowd my fucking arse. Just look to the glorious world of television and the terrible terrible lowest common denominator shit that people watch, and all those terrible terrible newspapers that survive by pandering to that same audience. WoW is Big Brother and The X Factor combined and it has probably killed the MMO genre completely. I hope all of you that played it feel dirty and ashamed for what you have done.

Out of curiosity did you ever at any point play WoW for more than a week? The game is a far cry from where it started, and the original game was brilliant. Hell the first expansion was also brilliant.

After that it started to suffer from the current gaming culture this generation seems to have brought along, with instant gratification demands where everyone can be a special snowflake because they bought the game, and if it's too hard it should be made easier, not that they should get better.

Creativity and clever use of mechanics (not exploiting but just being original with things) was removed for bland homogenisation. Players were no longer rewarded for being smarter or better because "That's just not fair." That's not a WoW exclusive issue, far from.

What WoW brought to the table was an easy to use and easy to understand UI and combat system, the concept of easy to learn/difficult to master. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, the problem is people are too lazy to develop beyond it when making their own games, not WoW's fault.
« Last Edit: 15 May 2012, 10:50 by Caellach Marellus »
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Valadeus

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These days, though, if I hear 'MMO' then I think turgid by-the-numbers WoW clone. BORING. And you know what? That always proves to be the case. Sure, millions of people have subscribed for WoW, but it's still a fucking awful game. Millions of people can be wrong and they often are. Wisdom of the crowd my fucking arse. Just look to the glorious world of television and the terrible terrible lowest common denominator shit that people watch, and all those terrible terrible newspapers that survive by pandering to that same audience. WoW is Big Brother and The X Factor combined and it has probably killed the MMO genre completely. I hope all of you that played it feel dirty and ashamed for what you have done.

Out of curiosity did you ever at any point play WoW for more than a week? The game is a far cry from where it started, and the original game was brilliant. Hell the first expansion was also brilliant.

After that it started to suffer from the current gaming culture this generation seems to have brought along, with instant gratification demands where everyone can be a special snowflake because they bought the game, and if it's too hard it should be made easier, not that they should get better.

Creativity and clever use of mechanics (not exploiting but just being original with things) was removed for bland homogenisation. Players were no longer rewarded for being smarter or better because "That's just not fair." That's not a WoW exclusive issue, far from.

What WoW brought to the table was an easy to use and easy to understand UI and combat system, the concept of easy to learn/difficult to master. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, the problem is people are too lazy to develop beyond it when making their own games, not WoW's fault.

This is perhaps one of the most accurate assessments of World of Warcraft I've ever read.
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Wanoah

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These days, though, if I hear 'MMO' then I think turgid by-the-numbers WoW clone. BORING. And you know what? That always proves to be the case. Sure, millions of people have subscribed for WoW, but it's still a fucking awful game. Millions of people can be wrong and they often are. Wisdom of the crowd my fucking arse. Just look to the glorious world of television and the terrible terrible lowest common denominator shit that people watch, and all those terrible terrible newspapers that survive by pandering to that same audience. WoW is Big Brother and The X Factor combined and it has probably killed the MMO genre completely. I hope all of you that played it feel dirty and ashamed for what you have done.

Out of curiosity did you ever at any point play WoW for more than a week?

No, I hated it on sight. From the very first screenshot up to watching my gf play it recently via many many thousands of words written and spoken about it. I did, however, play LOTRO for a bit...which was WoW in Middle Earth so far as I can tell. I don't think you need to torture yourself by playing the damn thing to be able to see its systems and it concepts writ large on every major MMO project. Its success has blighted what had started to look like a very exciting gaming experience with games like UO and Eve blazing a trail that no one has followed.
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Caellach Marellus

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These days, though, if I hear 'MMO' then I think turgid by-the-numbers WoW clone. BORING. And you know what? That always proves to be the case. Sure, millions of people have subscribed for WoW, but it's still a fucking awful game. Millions of people can be wrong and they often are. Wisdom of the crowd my fucking arse. Just look to the glorious world of television and the terrible terrible lowest common denominator shit that people watch, and all those terrible terrible newspapers that survive by pandering to that same audience. WoW is Big Brother and The X Factor combined and it has probably killed the MMO genre completely. I hope all of you that played it feel dirty and ashamed for what you have done.

Out of curiosity did you ever at any point play WoW for more than a week?

No

All I needed to know there really.

Though I should note, WoW wasn't the first game to have it's style of concept, infact WoW is a huge rip off from Everquest, it just does it better and has evolved. The UI is easily the best UI in any MMO game, EVE's has improved vastly in the last 6 months but it's still way behind.

The formula was already there to be copied, WoW is technically itself a "WoW-type" clone.
« Last Edit: 15 May 2012, 12:48 by Caellach Marellus »
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Repentence Tyrathlion

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The UI is easily the best UI in any MMO game, EVE's has improved vastly in the last 6 months but it's still way behind.

Shite chat system, though.  Don't know why everyone persists in copying it.  I kind of got used to it in my forays, and more recently while playing TOR, but I'm still not a fan.
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Caellach Marellus

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The UI is easily the best UI in any MMO game, EVE's has improved vastly in the last 6 months but it's still way behind.

Shite chat system, though.  Don't know why everyone persists in copying it.  I kind of got used to it in my forays, and more recently while playing TOR, but I'm still not a fan.

Because the LUA coding allows you to mod the living hell out of it. The only drawback is the 10 public channel limit.
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Morwen Lagann

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The UI is easily the best UI in any MMO game, EVE's has improved vastly in the last 6 months but it's still way behind.

Shite chat system, though.  Don't know why everyone persists in copying it.  I kind of got used to it in my forays, and more recently while playing TOR, but I'm still not a fan.

Because the LUA coding allows you to mod the living hell out of it. The only drawback is the 10 public channel limit.

As someone who used to write plugins in this language for another online game (not WoW), this is a particularly annoying habit people have picked up for some stupid reason: it is "Lua", not "LUA". A proper noun, not an acronym (scroll down).

Get it right, please.
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Morwen's Law:
1) The number of capsuleer women who are bisexual is greater than the number who are lesbian.
2) Most of the former group appear lesbian due to a lack of suitable male partners to go around.
3) The lack of suitable male partners can be summed up in most cases thusly: interested, worth the air they breathe, available; pick two.

Caellach Marellus

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Quote
The UI is easily the best UI in any MMO game, EVE's has improved vastly in the last 6 months but it's still way behind.

Shite chat system, though.  Don't know why everyone persists in copying it.  I kind of got used to it in my forays, and more recently while playing TOR, but I'm still not a fan.

Because the LUA coding allows you to mod the living hell out of it. The only drawback is the 10 public channel limit.

As someone who used to write plugins in this language for another online game (not WoW), this is a particularly annoying habit people have picked up for some stupid reason: it is "Lua", not "LUA". A proper noun, not an acronym (scroll down).

Get it right, please.

Probably because it's ALLCAPS in WoW.

But hey, the more you know...
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Wanoah

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These days, though, if I hear 'MMO' then I think turgid by-the-numbers WoW clone. BORING. And you know what? That always proves to be the case. Sure, millions of people have subscribed for WoW, but it's still a fucking awful game. Millions of people can be wrong and they often are. Wisdom of the crowd my fucking arse. Just look to the glorious world of television and the terrible terrible lowest common denominator shit that people watch, and all those terrible terrible newspapers that survive by pandering to that same audience. WoW is Big Brother and The X Factor combined and it has probably killed the MMO genre completely. I hope all of you that played it feel dirty and ashamed for what you have done.

Out of curiosity did you ever at any point play WoW for more than a week?

No

All I needed to know there really.


Because not having direct personal experience of something automatically invalidates an opinion, right?
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Caellach Marellus

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These days, though, if I hear 'MMO' then I think turgid by-the-numbers WoW clone. BORING. And you know what? That always proves to be the case. Sure, millions of people have subscribed for WoW, but it's still a fucking awful game. Millions of people can be wrong and they often are. Wisdom of the crowd my fucking arse. Just look to the glorious world of television and the terrible terrible lowest common denominator shit that people watch, and all those terrible terrible newspapers that survive by pandering to that same audience. WoW is Big Brother and The X Factor combined and it has probably killed the MMO genre completely. I hope all of you that played it feel dirty and ashamed for what you have done.

Out of curiosity did you ever at any point play WoW for more than a week?

No

All I needed to know there really.


Because not having direct personal experience of something automatically invalidates an opinion, right?

Never said it invalidated it. I just wanted to know what your direct personal experience actually was.
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Kala

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All I needed to know there really.

Though I should note, WoW wasn't the first game to have it's style of concept, infact WoW is a huge rip off from Everquest, it just does it better and has evolved. The UI is easily the best UI in any MMO game, EVE's has improved vastly in the last 6 months but it's still way behind.

The formula was already there to be copied, WoW is technically itself a "WoW-type" clone.

I've played it on and off for years - since release - and I don't entirely disagree with him (maybe not the extent of the vitriol  :P)  It wasn't an awful game - it was a very addictive and enjoyable game.  But it probably has killed MMOs in a creative sense by virtue of its success.  And yes, the two first major MMOGs that I know of were Everquest and Ultima Online.  WoW went the Everquest route and very few subsequent MMOs went the Ultima Online route (EVE was one. Not saying EVE is a 'UO clone' obviously, but very similar outlook. IIRC TomB cited it as an inspiration/influence in a devblog).   

So since almost the dawn of time (1997!) we've had the concept of a sandbox MMO in Ultima Online.  We've had player killing, player thievery, and home (and boat!) ownership.  We've had no levels, but a set of chosen skills to increase.  We've had death that equates with loss. 

So it does boggles me slightly that similar ideas are apparently too groundbreaking, controversal or difficult for game developers to manage in 2012.  It's not like there wasn't precedent.  Many of the things people are disappointed won't make it into the elder scrolls MMO or that 'don't translate into MMOs' were already done in one of the first MMOs.  Seems a tad ironic. (Like raaiiiin)

WoW's staggering mainstream success was a game changer. Most MMOs seem to go the 'WoW-clone' route (some really do justify the term 'WoW-clone' rather than simply the same ethos, as it just seems like a changed skin - all the WoW elements are there, to the point that nowadays they are not associated with World of Warcraft, but simply MMOs.  Particularly when the next (current?) generation of MMOG players has never encountered another way of doing things...) 

I don't hate WoW.  It's very on and off for me, and I'll burn out on what ultimately feels like a shallow experience.  It is very very good at what it does and yes, it's extraordinarily polished.  What I do hate, is that game developers are now simply repeating the formula ad naseum; at times an unabashed copy and paste. It's perfectly understandable from a financial perspective: WoW was successful, try and replicate that success.  It's inexcusable from a creative standpoint.  We already have WoW; you're probably not going to improve on it in any meaningful way.  Be brave and do something else.


---

(as an aside that has very little to do with the conversation, but just occured to me...the lexicon tends to be absorbed into the ether. f.ex 'raids' and 'end-game content' and 'level-cap' are all familiar MMO lexicon now, not just WoW terms.  They are things expected and assumed to be in MMOs - I have seen people be absolutely flummoxed in the eve-o forums after inquiring about the game using these terms.  Then the thought occured about how EVE is on one server rather than 'sharding' and how the term 'sharding' for splitting the game into servers/worlds is so commonplace now and remembered that the term originated in UO...The world was a crystal or somesuch, which was broken into 'shards'. Hence servers ^^...oh...but there's also 'database sharding'...anyone know if that term predates UO?http://www.raphkoster.com/2009/01/08/database-sharding-came-from-uo/interesting!! um. to me.)

---

(as a further aside: I wonder what A World Without WoW would've been like.  I wonder if I am genuinely overstating its influence on the MMO market.  Without the WoW model saturating MMOdom, would games have been more experimental and varied - but perhaps more underground or niche?  Or would something similar to WoW have simply filled the vaccuum and become hugely popular? Has WoW created a culture or did the culture create WoW? IF YOU BUILD IT THEY WILL COME. @_@ Eh. Probably a bit of chicken and a bit of egg.)

---

(er. further aside. WoW is SO simple, basic and easy to grasp that I set my parents up on PCs to play it and see what happened. Disaster. They couldn't grasp how the game worked at all. Things like moving the mouse for the camera and the keyboard for movement AT THE SAME TIME confounded them. They kept running into (literal) walls or staring up at the sky  :| my mother became very stressed out with having to perform simultaneous tasks and said "you do this to relax???" In retrospect, unlike most of the population, they may have actually found EVE easier  :D  Though I also agree that the chat system in WoW is poor - especially after EVE, which spoilt meh)
« Last Edit: 15 May 2012, 16:30 by Kala »
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Caellach Marellus

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There's also the buggery that whenever anyone does something new, Blizzard steals it and adds it to WoW anyway  :bash:
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