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[Myyona]

I have never played an Elder Scrolls game...

Seriously, Fantasy is without a doubt my least favorite setting.

[Aria Jenneth]

The mace isn't corrupting you (as far as I can tell). It's basically power with no drawbacks (other than being weak compared with other magic items).

In general, I agree that the various daedric artifacts come with too few strings attached. However ...

(1) Generally, the daedric gods gift you with their artifacts because you've already demonstrated your suitability for their purpose.

Case in point, Molag Bal: by the time you've got the full-fledged mace, you've (a) tracked down and freed a minion of M.B.'s rival; (b) deceived or dared said minion into returning to Markarth to resume his desecration of M.B.'s shrine, knowing full well it's a trap; and, (c) beaten a helpless old man to death with a rusty mace. Twice.

You don't get the mace so that it can corrupt you; you get the mace because you are corrupt.

(2) The idea of the daedric princes givin' you their stuff is not so much, seemingly, that they expect you to consistently serve their will (though some certainly act like it-- I'm looking at you, Meridia). It's that when you use their stuff, you are working their will. Use the Mace of Molag Bal with a soul gem equipped, and you are first weakening your enemies, then crushing them utterly and stealing their souls. M.B. doesn't give a damn who you beat, so long as you're using the mace to do it ...

... and even if you never do, eventually someone else will acquire it.

Similarly, you are working Azura's will each time you use her star (or thumbing your nose at her and her relatively benevolent intentions each time you use the Black Star to trap a human soul); you are stealing dreams for Namira every time you use the Skull of Corruption to, well, steal dreams; and you are harvesting souls for Mehrunes Dagon each time the Razor insta-kills someone (that's how it works-- slurp! "Your soul is mine").

You are praising Boethia's name (and mocking all notions of honor) by trotting around in the Ebony Mail, spreading chaos for Sheogorath by wielding the Wabbajack, giving one of Sanguine's minions a bloody night out on the town by using the Sanguine Rose, praising Namira with every nibble you take from a corpse using her Ring, enforcing Peryite's order by wielding Spellbreaker, and giving glory to Malacath with every skull Volendrung staves in. The Oghma Infinium vanishes from your hands once used, spreading Hermaeus Mora's Lovecraftian influence elsewhere in the world, while the grant of knowledge it gives remains behind in your mind, a testament to his power. If you use Dawnbreaker for its sole useful purpose at all, you are serving Meridia's will by hunting the undead.

About the only daedra who seems to care at all who you use her artifact on is Mephala, and that's because treachery is needed to strengthen her Ebony Blade. Once you've killed ten of your nearest and dearest, she could care less.

Every daedric prince bestows power on the dragonborn in the hope that it will be used. That is the only motivation necessary; with the exception of Azura and Meridia, none of them gives a damn who you use that power on. Callous disregard for life is a hallmark of the daedra. I only wish that it were more consistently desirable to use the power they offer (the artifacts should be either more powerful or more consistently unique).

Yes, I'm an enormous TES fan. Yes, I think I'll be giving this one a pass, because it seems like so much of what I love from TES is flatly impossible in an MMO.

I have never played an Elder Scrolls game...

Seriously, Fantasy is without a doubt my least favorite setting.

TES is much more interesting, as a setting, than most fantasy. For one, it virtually bleeds moral ambiguity. The same person who saves the world is very often, in many, many ways, a Very Bad Person.

As per Morrowind (by way of the Bloodmoon expansion), imagine the second coming of the Messiah as ... um. A werewolf. Who eats people on a nightly basis.

That said, if you can't stand the sight of swords, fireballs, and pointy ears, best steer clear.

[Ulphus]

But as regards Broo (who to a Warhammer player would look like standard chaos beastmen). Ever heard of the healer of the waste? This is a Broo that joins the head taking cult and gets "corrupted" by exposure to the spirit of a dead healer priestess. It renounces violence, changes cults and becomes a wandering healer.

So even Broo have a bit of complexity in RQ canon.

For the sake of not having an extra page, I decided not to mention the healer of the waste...

Of course the irony is most people from that god ridden setting see things in very good and evil, no compromise ways.

Interesting. I wouldn't have said that, but then most of my games were Orlanthi based.

I have often wondered if it was a sign that I was growing up that I switched from mostly playing Humakti characters to not finding them interesting any more. Heroquest particularly made them much more crazy loopies than they'd originally been in RQ, and the Orlanthi (and the extreme number of sub-cults) became a much more human religion for all it's drawbacks.

[Vikarion]

The mace isn't corrupting you (as far as I can tell). It's basically power with no drawbacks (other than being weak compared with other magic items).

In general, I agree that the various daedric artifacts come with too few strings attached. However ...

(1) Generally, the daedric gods gift you with their artifacts because you've already demonstrated your suitability for their purpose.

Case in point, Molag Bal: by the time you've got the full-fledged mace, you've (a) tracked down and freed a minion of M.B.'s rival; (b) deceived or dared said minion into returning to Markarth to resume his desecration of M.B.'s shrine, knowing full well it's a trap; and, (c) beaten a helpless old man to death with a rusty mace. Twice.

I beg to differ. When I kill one evil Daedric worshipper in order to get a mace which I will use to kill other Daedric worshippers, that's not corruption, that's Good being devious.

Or it would be if I actually used the mace. In reality the mace just gets tossed into my house with all the other shiny junk that I just have to have but will never use because Spells are Pretty.

[Aria Jenneth]

Vikarion, that's not an execution scene. It's torturing an old man to death, then breaking him, then doing it again just for Molag Bal's satisfaction.

"Good being devious," in that scenario, is being awfully morally flexible-- and, by your own statement, you don't use the resulting power, which means that good isn't being devious; good is indulging in pointless cruelty.

At that point, it seems difficult to justify calling it "good."

I think the "good" option there is to walk away and leave the quest permanently unfinished, and that's whether you use the mace after or not. Otherwise, you're doing the will of one of the most unambiguously evil beings in TES lore, and I don't think you get to say, "I serve Satan, but it's for a good cause."

[Mathra Hiede]

Vikarion, that's not an execution scene. It's torturing an old man to death, then breaking him, then doing it again just for Molag Bal's satisfaction.

"Good being devious," in that scenario, is being awfully morally flexible-- and, by your own statement, you don't use the resulting power, which means that good isn't being devious; good is indulging in pointless cruelty.

At that point, it seems difficult to justify calling it "good."

I think the "good" option there is to walk away and leave the quest permanently unfinished, and that's whether you use the mace after or not. Otherwise, you're doing the will of one of the most unambiguously evil beings in TES lore, and I don't think you get to say, "I serve Satan, but it's for a good cause."

I serve the blood raiders but I do it to protect the Empire.
Yeah, I see your point and agree.

Dislike molag as main protagonist, and also in the documents Seri listed there is also reference to the players soul ALL READY BEING OWNED BY HIM to explain re-incarnation.
Yeah-no.

[hellgremlin]

What's wrong with you losers? Molag Bal is fucking awesome.

Do you know what my favorite part of Skyrim was? Beating that old bastard! Oh, oh, oh, and don't get me started on the delicious cruelty of beating him to death, then getting to resurrect him while fully aware that I just beat him to death, and GETTING TO BEAT HIM TO DEATH AGAIN!

Oh man. But the story doesn't stop there. You'd think it did, because I just beat this helpless STUPID geezer to death twice. Get this. Molag, my nigga that he is, RESURRECTS THE GUY I JUST BEAT TO DEATH TWICE FOR THE EXPRESS PURPOSE OF ME BEATING HIM AGAIN! JUST TO HEAR HIM SCREAMING! I haven't seen cruelty this well-simulated since Serbian Mass-Grave Stomper IV. I can't fucking WAIT to see who Molag Bal makes me torture next!

[hellgremlin]

(the above post was intended to illustrate the target audience of a Molag Bal quest)

[Vikarion]

Vikarion, that's not an execution scene. It's torturing an old man to death, then breaking him, then doing it again just for Molag Bal's satisfaction.

"Good being devious," in that scenario, is being awfully morally flexible-- and, by your own statement, you don't use the resulting power, which means that good isn't being devious; good is indulging in pointless cruelty.

At that point, it seems difficult to justify calling it "good."

I think the "good" option there is to walk away and leave the quest permanently unfinished, and that's whether you use the mace after or not. Otherwise, you're doing the will of one of the most unambiguously evil beings in TES lore, and I don't think you get to say, "I serve Satan, but it's for a good cause."

Joke. A joke. I was joking. 

But yes, I largely agree. The thing is, in a pantheon which includes the Mehrunes Dagon (Lord of Destruction, who pursues the destruction of mortals precisely because they stay dead), Mephala (who just loves you killing those who trust you most), and Vaermina (whose realm is eternal nightmare), Molag Bal doesn't really seem all that exceptional. In fact, he doesn't even seem all that dangerous, compared with, say, the actual pure mind-destroying capabilities of Vaermina or the unseen assassins of Mephala. Also, let's not forget the soul-devouring world dragon, and, worst of all, Sithis. Apparently Sithis is the sort of thing that Lovecraftian monsters have nightmares about.

So, when I'm busily destroying villages for Mephala, luring priests to the dens of cannibals for Namira, and delivering souls to the void of Sithis, Molag Bal just doesn't stick out that much. Sure, for that priest, beating him to death was probably a big deal, but for my character, that was (a boring) Tuesday. 

[Aria Jenneth]

... Not sure it's quite the intended audience, but ... yeah.

I do have to say that I appreciate the degree to which they've made a point about how the daedra embody essentially uncaring forces of nature that are consequently inimical to humanity. The concept of "control" does not give a damn whether you are happy about being controlled, the concept of "rebellion" does not give a damn whether you would rather live in peace with man and mer, and the concept of "intrigue" doesn't much care who you betray, so long as you get some betraying done.

I do, personally, tend to play fairly evil, or at least morally indifferent, characters, and I did get the Oblivion Walker trophy on general principle, but I have to say that Molag Bal's quest in particular made me feel like I'd been soaking my brain in sewage. I do kind of approve of making the others more twitch-inducing, but that one ... yeah, M.B. didn't really need to get any worse.

Edit:

Vikarion, please to remember that sardonic tone does not flow naturally through text, and also that people can sometimes be, um, very funny, without joking.

It is advisable to follow this type of joke with a truly over-the-top statement. See Istvaan's line about "Serbian Mass-Grave Stomper IV" for an example.

Also, thank you for explaining. You kind of had me worried.

[Vikarion]

Crud.

I was writing more, submitted too soon, sorry Aria.

[Aria Jenneth]

... and, worst of all, Sithis. Apparently Sithis is the sort of thing that Lovecraftian monsters have nightmares about.

Huh-- that's interesting. Sithis actually strikes me as significantly less evil than the daedra.

Daedric princes are, with rare exceptions, purely incapable of feeling any true regard for those who serve them. This is simply their nature; humans are pretty much just animals to them.

Sithis, on the other hand, seems to genuinely care about at least one mortal: Cicero, who, while not fit to be Listener, has served the Night Mother long and well. The hint to this effect comes from the "Spectral Assassin," (who was Lucien Lachance in Oblivion). When you are sent to slay Cicero, this is his comment: "I will kill this Jester if you so wish, but there is a disturbance in the void, this is not what our dread father desires."

While Sithis is capable of making an excellent villain, and has done so in the past (Morrowind), he also strikes me as more coherent, as an entity, less ... inhumanly elemental, less narrow, I suppose ... than the daedric princes.

Sithis, after all, stands for a perspective that a human can comprehend and sympathize with: all things must eventually end. Attempts to maintain existence in static perpetuity are offensive. Sithis is the void from which all comes and to which all must return, but also the chaos of change and metamorphosis. And death, of course-- for change to occur, what is, now, must end.

You could do worse, as divinities go. I could actually see worshiping that. Certainly, he's a viable alternative to the Nine, who can be seen as selfish beings whose primary concern is the protection of their own unnaturally-extended existences.

Go to the sharmat Dagoth Ur as a friend. 

[Vikarion]

... and, worst of all, Sithis. Apparently Sithis is the sort of thing that Lovecraftian monsters have nightmares about.

Huh-- that's interesting. Sithis actually strikes me as significantly less evil than the daedra.

Daedric princes are, with rare exceptions, purely incapable of feeling any true regard for those who serve them. This is simply their nature; humans are pretty much just animals to them.

Sithis, on the other hand, seems to genuinely care about at least one mortal: Cicero, who, while not fit to be Listener, has served the Night Mother long and well. The hint to this effect comes from the "Spectral Assassin," (who was Lucien Lachance in Oblivion). When you are sent to slay Cicero, this is his comment: "I will kill this Jester if you so wish, but there is a disturbance in the void, this is not what our dread father desires."

While Sithis is capable of making an excellent villain, and has done so in the past (Morrowind), he also strikes me as more coherent, as an entity, less ... inhumanly elemental, less narrow, I suppose ... than the daedric princes.

Sithis, after all, stands for a perspective that a human can comprehend and sympathize with: all things must eventually end. Attempts to maintain existence in static perpetuity are offensive. Sithis is the void from which all comes and to which all must return, but also the chaos of change and metamorphosis. And death, of course-- for change to occur, what is, now, must end.

You could do worse, as divinities go. I could actually see worshiping that. Certainly, he's a viable alternative to the Nine, who can be seen as selfish beings whose primary concern is the protection of their own unnaturally-extended existences.

Go to the sharmat Dagoth Ur as a friend. 

Hmm, I hadn't thought of it in that manner. But, to me, part of the threat of Sithis is that it is both malevolent and unrecognizable. From the in-game literature and characters, it seems pretty obvious that Sithis is responsible for the creation of everything, but also holds eternal malice towards it - in short, Sithis is the progenitor of formless chaos, and desires only possibility, not actuality. It seems understandable, then, that the Dark Brotherhood seems to possess a bit of soul-searing insanity lurking around the edges. It's the idea not of simple nothingness, but of the screaming Void, an abyss of nothingness with an awareness of its existence as such.

Of course, there's another interpretation. Suppose the Altmer are right about Lorkan, but wrong about Sithis? Perhaps Sithis isn't trying to destroy that which is for the sake of the formless void, but rather to rescue the stranded souls of men and mer trapped in the material plane. The void, then, might not be terrible, but freedom from the prison of Lorkan.

[Aria Jenneth]

Depends on how you look at it, really.

Sithis is an erosive force; there's no doubt of that. Given the chance to destroy the world, he would surely take it. See, again, Morrowind.

However, Sithis is not merely an embodiment, like the daedric princes-- he is the force of chaos itself. Without his influence, there is no death, no metamorphosis, no change. I don't know what your feelings are on the matter, but that sounds to me very much like hell. Eternal, unchanging existence?

Glagh. No thanks.

Give water the chance to run downhill, and it will surely do so. Give fire the chance to run wild through your house, and it will surely do so. Were Sithis to cease trying to return the universe to the void, he would not be Sithis, and the results would not be pretty.

On the subject of soul-searing insanity: the Dark Brotherhood is populated, appropriately, with sociopaths. This was so in Oblivion, and is the case again in Skyrim. They don't seem to suffer any more from serving Sithis than they do from being the sorts of people who catch the Brotherhood's interest in the first place.

Compare to necromancers, who genuinely do encounter soul-searing forces on a regular basis: black soul gems. Canonically (this is covered in Oblivion), not only is trapping a "black," that is (for those of you unfamiliar with TES), sapient mortal, soul for use in enchanting an atrocity, but the black soul gem also traps tiny bits of soul from anybody who handles it. You can see the results all over any necromancer's lair in the game.

The Dark Brotherhood may be vicious, amoral, and way too cheerful about cold-blooded murder, but for serious sick motherfucker-ness, you can't beat a necromancer. Even the, er, conjurer at the College of Winterhold seems a bit, ah, dodgy. Not to mention a little hollow around the eyes.

Seems you're better off as a well-adjusted monster than as a spiritually acid-etched wretch-- and everybody around you is better off, too.

Edit:

... including the people you kill, necromancers being necromancers.

[Kala]

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/05/04/a-lot-of-tamriel-estate-the-elder-scrolls-online/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+RockPaperShotgun+%28Rock%2C+Paper%2C+Shotgun%29&utm_content=Google+Reader

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=472749

I know it's early days, but from the sounds of it, it's going to be disappoint. (for me, anyways)

"It needs to be comfortable for people who are coming in from a typical massively multiplayer game that has the same control mechanisms, but it also has to appeal to Skyrim players."

"Recreateing the freedom Elder Scrolls players expect within the World of Warcraft-style mechanics Zenimax Online is using for this MMO would be impossible without changing the way that players interact with the world.

:/

You destroy dark anchors to gain reputation with the Fighter's Guild. They are large hooks that fall from the sky pseudorandomly and have Daedric guardians next to them. They are easier to kill with a group, and once destroyed, everyone who participated gets a reputation boost with the Fighter's Guild, and eventually nets you rewards like new skills and abilities.

...waaah?



but. y'know, hooks.