Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Kiki Truzhari]

So, in the course of sorting our the internal and external policies for Teraa Matar, and pull us back towards our stated goals, we ran into a bit of a hitch. See, We're supposed to be tribalists, unfortunately, we don't currently have any real good definition of what it means to really be a matari tribalist. This is my attempt to address that, with a bit of a brief 'this is an overview, fill in the blanks as desired' sort of meaning, but I wanted to get some community oversight before I told me members to go forth and do it. So basically, the following is my rough attempt to summarize matari culture for my corpmates, Its really not very good, and I want to make it much better before I tell people to go forth and play with it.

Annyway...here we go:

Matari Culture is Tribalist. That means that within the republic, there are seven tribal nations, The Sebiestor, the Brutor, the Vherokior, the Krusual, the Thukker, the Starkmanir, and the Nefantar.

These tribes are bloodlines, that can trace their history back tens of thousands of years to before the rise of high tech civilisation on matar. To be a tribalist is to conform to a set of values associated with these tribes.

To summarize:
*To be a part of clan, a social support group made up of several extended families living together.
*To be a part of a tribe, representative of being able to trace your bloodline back to the tribe, or by earning membership of it.
*To put your clan above yourself, your clan above your tribe, your tribe above your people, and your people above others.
*To honor and respect those above you within the tribe and clan, to not seek to grow in power but merely to aid the whole
*To respect the traditions of your clan, tribe, and nation
*to have a sort of spirituality compatible with tribal living. (*Note, there are matari atheists, they are just not vocal about it)
*to know your place within a clan and tribe, and strive to perform the tasks of that place as well as possible.
*To walk their life path with honor, and integrity. Not half assing anything.
*To respect your elders, and those with more life experiences then you
*To not attempt to go against the cultural norm, to not make waves, or rock the boat. If one doesn't fit something, they go against it quietly, and don't attempt to bring others into it with them.
*To respect the differences of other clans and tribes.
*To not attempt to proselytize or bring them into the culture

Beyond that, its sort of whatever you want. To aid things, I made a sort of brief dossier on sort of how the culture runs overall.

Social Structure

The Minmatar Republic is almost like two governments, overlapping each other. Besides the Gallentean inspired Republic itself, the seven tribes retain a sort of autonomy over themselves and their people.

The power and value structure within the tribes resembles this:

Tribe
-Sub-Tribe
--Clan
---Family

So within the tribalist structure, one belongs, not only to their people, but to their tribal, sub-tribe, clan, and family. These groups all weigh in ahead of the individual. Matari culture puts the collective ahead of the self.

The tribes are not a democracy, everyone does not get a vote. Most matters are decided by a council of elders at that level of society, the elders are picked based on age, merit, familial connections, and the voluval, the coming of age ceremony. In a lot of ways, matari culture is meritocratic, those who get into power are those who have earned it and have the marks to prove it, however, with two people of roughly equal qualifications, the age, and family and clan connections of an individual become exceedingly important, with the elderly seen as having more wisdom and therefore better qualified to be leaders. Power within the tribes is not sought, and those seeking power are often the least likely to be given it.

Within a Tribe, which almost all of consist of well over a billion people, the authority is handed out by a tribal council, and the council's support structure. It is fairly bureaucratic, by necessity more then any anything else. the Tribal Council Office oversees tribal membership, sponsorship, negotiates with the other tribes, manages clan level oversight, and reports to the Republic government on these matters. The tribe looks out for its own first and foremost, anyone not of blood heritage to the tribe they're seeking admission in, will have an exceedingly difficult, though not impossible time getting in, albeit most of those cases the exceptions arise from marriage, mixed heritage children, or those who have proven themselves to the tribe in ways that simple cannot be ignored.

Subtribes are basically logistical regions overseen by the tribal council authority of clans that are local to each other, and have similar beliefs.

Within a clan itself, almost anything goes. Power within a clan can be passed matrilineally, or Patrilineally, the tribe can be democractic, have a ruling council, or one ruling elder. They can be small or large, and most details about a clan and its specific customs are left to the individual RPer.

Spirituality

Matari spirituality is very diverse, with people pulling inspiration from Native American mythology, along with Norse, Germanic, and Celtic mythological traditions, there are some universalities, which Uranium did a good enough job with that I'm just going to quote her:

Much like all systems of belief across the cluster, Matari spiritual practices do have their core tenants or primary ideas central to the wider and more varied individual practices. To my understanding those core tenants are; an acceptance that there is no single route to enlightenment, reverence for all aspects of the world both tangible and intangible, respect for ones elders, and selflessness. This set of guiding principles is not entirely unique to the Matari, but like all faiths the groups that practice them do so in their own ways.

In my estimation perhaps the single most important detail of Matari belief is that the path of one's life, the hardships experienced and the lessons learned, will be different than those of the person next to you. To put it differently, the steps one takes toward, or away, from spiritual understanding are simply held to be different for each person. What one person finds to be an epiphany might seem mundane or utterly inconsequential to another person. Regardless of the details, one thing all spiritual Matari seem to agree upon is that the path itself exists. There is always a means to better oneself and others in this life right up until the end of it, and even after death a person can be a guiding influence to their friends and loved ones. This fluid nature, this varied dynamic is reflective in some ways of the tribal society of the Matari themselves, but beyond that it also suggests a simple but profound belief. That since the world is so dynamic and mutable, so too must be the quest for understanding and enlightenment. Now this idea doesn't eliminate the fact that there are wrong actions, wrong steps on the path, it only allows for multiple right ones.
The second of chiefly important ideas in Matari spirituality is that there isn't a singular unified entity or being at the core of worship, rather there are quite possibly trillions of interconnected entities, or spirits. The myriad of entities a spiritual Matari might worship or invoke all boil down to the concept that very nearly everything in the world has a spirit in some sense. As mind boggling as that might sound on the surface it isn't quite as specific and distinct as one might think. Every single drop of rain may not have it's own unique spirit but each drop is connected to the spirits of, in this case, local water sources and weather patterns. The spirit of the local lake is connected to the wider spirit of water but interacts with the spirits of the ground beneath it, the wind whipping across the lake surface, and the even the system's star. Through these spiritual interactions the physical world is shaped, and through actions in the physical world the spirit realm is shaped. To use a metaphor the interplay is similar to desert sand dunes. The wind helps shape the dunes, but the dunes also redirect the wind. The spirits of nature are not the only spirits to be sought. The spirits of one's departed loved ones, recent and reaching back into ancient ancestry, can be contacted for guidance, knowledge, and strength.

Thirdly, respect for one's elders. It should be noted that while I say “respect for one's elders” I do not mean solely in the sense of age, but in experience and knowledge. This is most definitely not unique to the Matari, but it is taken to a slightly different place in it's expression within their society and religion. Even among the Matari who do not hold to any spiritual belief system this respect is still central to their lives. Among both faithful and faithless this respect manifests most obviously in the practice of tattooing or marking. Matari marks serve primarily to tell of their bearers. At first glance this practice might seem something akin to bragging and boasting, but with further observation it's largely a display of unabashed honesty, especially when you consider the fact that not all tattoos are specifically good. A heavily tattooed Matari quite literally wears their personal history with all their major triumphs and failures exposed for all to see. In practice this easily identifies a more experienced person and makes it a rather simple matter to determine if the individual is deserving of respect. In totality I personally find this practice amazing in that it promotes the personal acceptance of one's best and worst qualities.

Lastly, and again not specific to the Matari, is the concept of selflessness as both a social and a spiritual ideal. Of course one could argue endlessly where the line between social obligation and spiritual practice can be drawn, but the fact is the idea of doing well for another is something of intrinsic spiritual value. Among the Matari this extends to a degree not always present in other belief systems and cultures. Spiritual Matari rarely tend to think of family as solely their immediate blood relations. Instead this concept is expanded to include a wide array of people that will interact with them. This bond of acceptance, respect, and even love extends to the clan and tribal level. Sometimes it even goes beyond to those who are comrades and friends but outsiders on the clan and tribe levels. It is a rare and controversial thing for a faithful Matari to do something that would do more harm than good for their “Brothers and Sisters” or even do something solely for their own personal benefit without considering how to share that benefit.

Well, thats one very long, verbose topic...sooo...tell me where I'm wrong, and how I should clean up and expand this.

[Ulphus]

Tribalism is to me, to paraphrase:
Me and my brother against my cousin, me and my cousin against the world.

A bunch of your bullet points seem to be new-age-hippy, not tribalism, per se.

*To honor and respect those above you within the tribe and clan, to not seek to grow in power but merely to aid the whole

I don't see how this is part of tribalism by default. It seems to me that people in a tribe can be just as power hungry, selfish or as much an arsehole as anyone in any other society. I think that the people who end up as leaders probably did it by playing tribal politics just as hard as any Caldari CEO doing a corporate takeover or Gallente politician vying for a marginal seat.

*to have a sort of spirituality compatible with tribal living. (*Note, there are matari atheists, they are just not vocal about it)

I don't get how spirituality is necessarily a part of tribal living. Tribalism and Animism (spiritualist) seem to be separate concerns unrelated. If you consider some modern islamic nations that are heavily tribal and strongly theistic rather than animist, I'd suggest that's a counter-example of why I don't think this quality is necessarily part of tribalism.

*to know your place within a clan and tribe, and strive to perform the tasks of that place as well as possible.
*To walk their life path with honor, and integrity. Not half assing anything.

I think shiftiness and laziness, and cheating (especially of outsiders) are by no means unknown in tribes or clans, so I'd disagree with both these.

*To respect your elders, and those with more life experiences then you

I'm sure the elders in every society want people to think this, and encourage it as a sociative norm, but I don't see them being any more successful here than they are in other societal types. Again, I don't see this as a necessary requirement for a person to be part of a tribe.

*To not attempt to go against the cultural norm, to not make waves, or rock the boat. If one doesn't fit something, they go against it quietly, and don't attempt to bring others into it with them.

How well do you think this attitude works when it encounters new technology or situations? I suspect that power struggles internal to clans or tribes are just as much rocking the boat as the people in question can get support for.

*To respect the differences of other clans and tribes.

I strongly disagree with this one. Tribal societies are often involved in inter-tribal wars over little differences like how they cross their arms when they pray. "Respecting differences" is something for people pretty high up Maslow's pyramid. The Republic isn't really in a position to be tolerant of people doing it wrong. Of course, there are probably big differences in what people think counts as "doing it wrong" so I expect that there's a lot of politics and maneuvering here too.

*To not attempt to proselytize or bring them into the culture

This just doesn't make sense to me. I don't think the average planet-bound tribal member even considers the possibility of convincing a stranger to join the clan/tribe (except possibly in marriage). I think this would only matter for the artificial clans that capsuleers make and call "corporations".

There is some weirdness around returnees in my view, where people who escape from or are released by the Amarr come back to the republic and try to find their clan. This seems to me not a case of proselytising, but of finding the place you already belong but don't know it yet.

Matari culture puts the collective ahead of the self.

I think this is true no more than it is of the Caldari or the Amarr. I think the difference is that the Matari have different ideas of how one gets ahead, and that an individual usually thinks they'll get ahead by using their clan and tribe as support, rather than doing it on their own. That's not the same thing in my view.

Power within the tribes is not sought, and those seeking power are often the least likely to be given it.

Strongly disagree here. Power comes to people who want it and who can convince other people to support them, either because they'll pay the favour back, or because they can convince people they'll be better off with this person in charge.

the Tribal Council Office oversees tribal membership, sponsorship, negotiates with the other tribes, manages clan level oversight, and reports to the Republic government on these matters. The tribe looks out for its own first and foremost, anyone not of blood heritage to the tribe they're seeking admission in, will have an exceedingly difficult, though not impossible time getting in, albeit most of those cases the exceptions arise from marriage, mixed heritage children, or those who have proven themselves to the tribe in ways that simple cannot be ignored.

Strongly disagree. The Sebiestor Tribe will be multiple billions, possibly trillions of people. The Tribal council will not be the level at which individual memberships are decided. That will all be dealt with at clan level. If a clan which is part of a tribe accepts someone as a member, then the tribe will as well by default. The real-politik proviso here would be that if a clan got too out of hand accepting outlandish and misbehaving people to the point where their neighbours complain, then that complaint would go up to the clan head, then sub-tribe or even tribal level to be sorted out depending on how that argument goes, and might lead to the clan being asked to disown the people in question, or potentially to the clan being disowned or losing much of its political support.

I imagine sub-tribes as being essentially gatherings of clans with similarities of interests, and potentially to have clans join or leave over the years as politics and self-interest dictate.

I disagree with a lot of the Uraniae thing too. If I recall, that was an IC post, so I assumed it had a certain amount of IC bias that wasn't worth arguing with at the time. Was I mistaken? 

[Mizhara]

Snip Snip.

This. All of this. Hell, even more, but let's deal with these first.

[Ava Starfire]

"Tribalism" to me has always meant government with an eye towards traditional tribal structures, and perhaps some other traditions, not necessarily a communal goal. The thing seperating Minmatar from other "social groups" to me has always been the Clan, the success or failure of which means success or failure of the individuals in it, but this does not mean that individuals cannot strive for personal glory; after all, a warrior who earns the right to wear all sorts of awesome tattoos gets that right for himself, and while he may bring some fame to his Clan, the deeds are his, much like a small town kid who becomes a professional athlete reaps most of the rewards himself. His town just puts up a billboard with his name on it!

Even within the Clan, I expect power struggles, posturing, and rivalries, and frankly, it would be dull if there werent any! Rival families squabbling over the choicest seats in a Clan council would be just as commonplace in Minmatar society as I expect it would be in the Holder houses in the Empire. Yes, odds are the Clan all have, more or less, a common goal and some unifying ideals, but that dosent mean they all want the same things all the time, nor that they wont ever want a bit more profit, or credit, than someone else within the Clan. Harming the clan outright to obtain those goals is a no-no... at least, if you wish to stay a member of it (and alive!) for very long.

At the larger tribal level, I expect the only overarching unifying things to be broad linguistic and cultural elements; everyone in the Sebiestor tribe have a common (more or less) ancestry, language, and some cultural things, but individual Clans are as unique as individual groups within any other overall ethnic category.

Certainly, the Minmatar place much importance on merit, but a shrewd politician may be seen to have as much "merit" as a wise shaman or veteran warrior; perhaps moreso, considering the environment they will operate within. Even here, squabbles (as seen in the horrid book, Empyrean Age) that can rock the society obviously occur, fueled by everything from intertribal rivalry to simple greed. Turnovers happen (or are at least attempted) when need, or simply opportunity, is found.

In short; Clan probably carries immense importance, but that loyalty diminishes quickly as each successively larger group is reached. Religion is more a clan or subtribal common concept than at the tribal level, and rivalries, even within the clan, can and do happen all the time. Individual glory is fine, and sought for, but generally not at the expense of the Clan... at the expense of the neighboring Clan, however... different story!

Let the infighting begin!

[Mizhara]

I think it's also worth noting that the impression I get of Matari life and social structures easily leads to "corruption". If you're in a position to hand out jobs or make decisions, family comes first. Your cousin will of course get the job over someone in another family, unless he's horribly inept of course. If you're setting up zoning, making political decisions of some sort, deciding who'll get that juicy construction contract or whatever, you'll make decisions that benefit your family (as long as you're still doing your job, anyway.). While elsewhere this might be considered corruption, I think it'd be quite natural in Matari life.

Of course, your milage may vary.

[Kiki Truzhari]

Yeah, see, this is a completely different view then I originally had, and its honestly much better.

[Ulphus]

I think it's also worth noting that the impression I get of Matari life and social structures easily leads to "corruption". If you're in a position to hand out jobs or make decisions, family comes first. Your cousin will of course get the job over someone in another family, unless he's horribly inept of course. If you're setting up zoning, making political decisions of some sort, deciding who'll get that juicy construction contract or whatever, you'll make decisions that benefit your family (as long as you're still doing your job, anyway.). While elsewhere this might be considered corruption, I think it'd be quite natural in Matari life.

Of course, your milage may vary.

While I agree, and think I've said it before somewhere on these boards, I don't think that the people involved will think of it as corruption. It's just the way things are done. If you don't help out your kin, nobody else will. Everybody (at least, everybody important) will have kin looking out for them too, so you need to help kin out to level the playing field (and so your kin will help you out too).

That said, your choices will come back to you. If you give a critical job to your cousin, and they screw it up, then you will look bad. So I think that will balance things a little bit. You will sure get your cousin a job, but if they're incompetent, you'll get them a job where they can't make you look too bad.

[Ulphus]

In short; Clan probably carries immense importance, but that loyalty diminishes quickly as each successively larger group is reached. Religion is more a clan or subtribal common concept than at the tribal level, and rivalries, even within the clan, can and do happen all the time. Individual glory is fine, and sought for, but generally not at the expense of the Clan... at the expense of the neighboring Clan, however... different story!

Agree with this a lot.

[Mizhara]

I think it's also worth noting that the impression I get of Matari life and social structures easily leads to "corruption". If you're in a position to hand out jobs or make decisions, family comes first. Your cousin will of course get the job over someone in another family, unless he's horribly inept of course. If you're setting up zoning, making political decisions of some sort, deciding who'll get that juicy construction contract or whatever, you'll make decisions that benefit your family (as long as you're still doing your job, anyway.). While elsewhere this might be considered corruption, I think it'd be quite natural in Matari life.

Of course, your milage may vary.

While I agree, and think I've said it before somewhere on these boards, I don't think that the people involved will think of it as corruption. It's just the way things are done. If you don't help out your kin, nobody else will. Everybody (at least, everybody important) will have kin looking out for them too, so you need to help kin out to level the playing field (and so your kin will help you out too).

That said, your choices will come back to you. If you give a critical job to your cousin, and they screw it up, then you will look bad. So I think that will balance things a little bit. You will sure get your cousin a job, but if they're incompetent, you'll get them a job where they can't make you look too bad.

This, yes. I guess I didn't quite get across that it'd only be seen as corruption from an outsider's point of view.

[lallara zhuul]

I would think that the spirituality/religion in the Republic would be a completely individual and a private thing.
Something that you would celebrate with your friends, family and community, but something that would be always kept on the down low and not enforced upon others in any way.

Partially this practice would be baggage from the slavery and partially because of the one of the most central beliefs that the Minmatar share with the Gallente, personal freedom.

The problem with the released slaves coming from the Empire would not be the fact that they've got Amarrian religion, it is the fact that they are vocal about it and try to enforce it upon others out of kindness.

Also... for me, trying to categorize and put the culture of the Minnies into pseudo-scientific-intellectual language does a disservice to it. It is more emotional and primal than something that can be caught, chloroformed and pinned down in a box.

[Seriphyn]

I know that players have done a lot to build up Minmatar fanon/semi-canon, so I won't proscribe too much in this post. Personally, I'm more curious as to the interaction between the Republic and Tribes. The Minmatar can NEVER go full tribal, because they need a bureaucracy to bind them all together for the purposes of administering the SPACE level of the Minmatar nation, as well as interacting with foreign empires. I think at the space level of the Republic, the tribe thing is more of a "Oh yeah, this is what I do in my private life and family time", but it's not as binding as it may be in planetside Republic societies. After all, the spaceside of New Eden is rather standardized, is it not? Space stations, SCC market, ISK, stargates etc. You can't really act fully tribal at this level, given how cosmopolitan each space station supposedly is.

I imagine the above is the Electus Matari spin on Minmatar RP. Or like, that's EM's approach.

Another thing...looking at RL tribalism instead of the new-age-hippiness could really help with worldbuilding. Ulphus's point about tribes in the Middle East being Muslim/monotheistic is very good. Also, gender roles. In almost every civilization in history, men have always come up on top over women. From Maasai tribes in east Africa, to India, to Japan, to Europe...it's everywhere. Worth taking a look at. This isn't a happy-clappy-liberal universe, after all.

In Papau New Guinea, elder men of certain tribes will have fellatio performed on them by young boys. The men ejaculate semen into the mouths of these boys, who then proceed to swallow it. The belief is that the semen contains the 'manly essence' that pass down from the elders to the youth. Do this enough times, and the boys will eventually become men.

"OMG PAEDOPHILIA?!" you say? In the eyes of a Westerner, yeah...something to think about.

[Lyn Farel]

Tribalism is to me, to paraphrase:
Me and my brother against my cousin, me and my cousin against the world.

Thats always how I could have resumed it myself.

This is also what mostly differenciates Republicans and Tribalists. Republicans want to see past the tribes and focus on the democratic side of the parliament. Republicans may be respectful to different degrees of the traditionnal tribes, but they think the power has to be put at the top of the ladder, the governement, while tribalists think the exact contrary, where the power has to be kept locally in tribes, and also in clans (the tribe has to remain strong and independant, the fewer it can be bond to public executive powers, the better). In the former, the Republic is powerful through public institutions, in the latter, the Republic is powerful through each of is tribes. To "gallenteanize" a little the concept, its mostly a matter of centralism vs federalism to my eyes, even if it doesnt match very well. And then it is also a matter of gradient, because you can also continue and add individualists. Individualists are like tribalists, but at the individual level instead of the tribe level, putting freedom above everything else in a twisted gallentean way, where it only benefit themselves.

That is how I see things in the Republic. (this is also kindof what I want to write in my New Eden subfaction chart)

*To honor and respect those above you within the tribe and clan, to not seek to grow in power but merely to aid the whole

I don't see how this is part of tribalism by default. It seems to me that people in a tribe can be just as power hungry, selfish or as much an arsehole as anyone in any other society. I think that the people who end up as leaders probably did it by playing tribal politics just as hard as any Caldari CEO doing a corporate takeover or Gallente politician vying for a marginal seat.

I could quote a lot of the bullets points, but is often a matter of values vs facts. For example I think you may be both right in your statements. Kikia is right because it might well be a value, but you are also right because it is what it is : a value, and not always a fact, far from it. Also, what annoys me with a lot of these bullets points thought, is that they are not that particularly tied to the Minmatar society, but can also often be applied to a lot of other factions, if not all. For me this is often about universal values.

I think it's also worth noting that the impression I get of Matari life and social structures easily leads to "corruption". If you're in a position to hand out jobs or make decisions, family comes first. Your cousin will of course get the job over someone in another family, unless he's horribly inept of course. If you're setting up zoning, making political decisions of some sort, deciding who'll get that juicy construction contract or whatever, you'll make decisions that benefit your family (as long as you're still doing your job, anyway.). While elsewhere this might be considered corruption, I think it'd be quite natural in Matari life.

Of course, your milage may vary.

While I agree, and think I've said it before somewhere on these boards, I don't think that the people involved will think of it as corruption. It's just the way things are done. If you don't help out your kin, nobody else will. Everybody (at least, everybody important) will have kin looking out for them too, so you need to help kin out to level the playing field (and so your kin will help you out too).

That said, your choices will come back to you. If you give a critical job to your cousin, and they screw it up, then you will look bad. So I think that will balance things a little bit. You will sure get your cousin a job, but if they're incompetent, you'll get them a job where they can't make you look too bad.

I think indeed this is more a matter of some sort of extreme nepotism. I guess it is a strong feature of the tribal economical society, even if it is sometimes very true in other factions (especially the Amarr, have I said already how I consider the Amarr and Minmatar sometimes extremely close to each other ?).

[Aphoxema G]

What I was hoping for was something that could be packaged and brand-stamped. Kiki's and Ava's interests in tribalism were anomalous to me, though I wanted to go with it, and now I see it's not really a problem with me just not getting it.

Damn those complex sociological issues.

[Ulphus]

I would think that the spirituality/religion in the Republic would be a completely individual and a private thing.
Something that you would celebrate with your friends, family and community, but something that would be always kept on the down low and not enforced upon others in any way.

Uh, I'm not sure that "completely individual" and "celebrate with your friends, family and community" really match up. Have I misunderstood? I suspect that a lot of what defines a community is at least compatible religious beliefs.

Partially this practice would be baggage from the slavery and partially because of the one of the most central beliefs that the Minmatar share with the Gallente, personal freedom.

Uh, could I ask why you think that the Matari have personal freedom as a central belief? Not wanting to be slaves (in the strongest way) is not necessarily the same as believing in personal freedom. In my view, everything the average tribal Matari does is tied to their clan in some way, even striving for personal glory or power.

The problem with the released slaves coming from the Empire would not be the fact that they've got Amarrian religion, it is the fact that they are vocal about it and try to enforce it upon others out of kindness.

Interesting. Why do you think that? I disagree, but then I seem to be doing that a lot recently.

I think there will be a number of different reactions to Matari believers in Amarrian religion, from people shaking their heads and ignoring them, through to disgust that they've assimilated with the evil ones, through to out right hostility and violence against people who betrayed who the Matari are by siding with the evil god. I suspect there may even be a few Matari who grew up in the Federation who don't care at all.

Also... for me, trying to categorize and put the culture of the Minnies into pseudo-scientific-intellectual language does a disservice to it. It is more emotional and primal than something that can be caught, chloroformed and pinned down in a box.

Do I need to roll out rant #4 again, about how tribal is not the same as primitive? Matari had spaceships and a variety of technology better than we have on earth today before the Amarrians showed up to stomp their society and enslave them. I imagine that science was involved in that culture, rather than it being some special unique butterfly.

[Ulphus]

Personally, I'm more curious as to the interaction between the Republic and Tribes. The Minmatar can NEVER go full tribal, because they need a bureaucracy to bind them all together for the purposes of administering the SPACE level of the Minmatar nation, as well as interacting with foreign empires.

(Y'know Seri, one of the things that irritates me about your argument style is your habit of using words like "NEVER" and "ALWAYS"... could you instead consider phrases like "The Minmatar would likely have difficulty using a purely tribal model because...." My blood pressure would thank you.)

I think at the space level of the Republic, the tribe thing is more of a "Oh yeah, this is what I do in my private life and family time", but it's not as binding as it may be in planetside Republic societies. After all, the spaceside of New Eden is rather standardized, is it not? Space stations, SCC market, ISK, stargates etc. You can't really act fully tribal at this level, given how cosmopolitan each space station supposedly is.

What counts as full tribal in this argument? Mostly in this thread I've been addressing the idea of how I think tribal culture would work. In my mental image, there is also a significant portion of the republic that isn't tribal, but I don't think that part works that well.

The republic has a lot of people whose clan connections were broken or disrupted by the Amarr slavery thing. There are still people arriving. I think that the majority of social services in the republic are provided at the clan level, and if you don't have a clan, then you're dependent on things organised by "the republic" and I don't think they work nearly as well, because most of the powerful people or people with influence are inside the tribal structure.

I also think the larger cities will have groups of people who moved there for work or due to clan disruption, and who haven't managed to get into quite as tight a clan support network. Possibly this will happen on stations as well, but looking at modern cities in tribal societies, you often end up with neighbourhoods of people from the same clan. In times of peace, these neighbourhoods appear to be intertwined, but in times of war/stress between clans, I'd imagine that there could be some tension there.

That said, I don't see why the tribal structure is incapable of administering the SPACE level of the Minmatar nation. The Krusal, the Brutor and the Sebiestor all appear to have tribal assets in space. As far as diplomacy or stuff, the Tribal council appoints someone to be in charge of diplomacy, they run a ministry (staffed by people in their tribe, or who they had to give jobs to in order to secure the support to get their position) and it runs like any diplomatic corp, except the rules about how you get promoted are probably different, and that might affect what counts as good performance.

I imagine the above is the Electus Matari spin on Minmatar RP. Or like, that's EM's approach.

Electus Matari is not a Minnie Borg. Matariki and I talk about this sort of thing a lot, and there are a few other long-time players who think in similar lines, but there is no orthodoxy that people are required to sign on to in order to be in EM.

Also, gender roles. In almost every civilization in history, men have always come up on top over women. From Maasai tribes in east Africa, to India, to Japan, to Europe...it's everywhere. Worth taking a look at. This isn't a happy-clappy-liberal universe, after all.

I'm mostly going to leave that one to Matariki if she can be bothered, but I will throw out that I think Men come out on top when a society gets by on BFI. In a technological universe with aids to physical performance (or, good gracious, machines) that mean the average Man's physical strength is not a significant advantage in society, that trend for men to come out on top is not likely to be universal.