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The command division of the Angel Cartel is called the Dominations.

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Author Topic: More Guns?  (Read 4906 times)

Esna Pitoojee

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Re: More Guns?
« Reply #15 on: 09 Mar 2012, 13:23 »

Well, the reason I asked is that the requirements for each are vastly different. While drones/fighters/frigates are solid targets that can be tracked, many of the weapons in EVE - Lasers, blasters, railguns - would be profoundly less receptive to any kind of anti-weapon fire. In theory it might be possible to arrange some sort of ablative/magnetic field to somewhat distort the blast, but given the fact that we're looking at weapons that slag through rolled Tungsten I have doubts about how effective that would be.
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I like the implications of Gallentians being punched in the face by walking up to a Minmatar as they so freely use another person's culture as a fad.

Bastian Valoron

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Re: More Guns?
« Reply #16 on: 09 Mar 2012, 16:01 »

Maybe an individual boat is not intended to be the basic entity of combat. The problem of missing guns goes away when the supporting fleet is taken into account.
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Desiderya

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Re: More Guns?
« Reply #17 on: 10 Mar 2012, 02:55 »

EVE's ships have highly efficient qualitites when it comes to taking damage. Therefore there is no pressing need for these point defense systems we see in other settings or the reality.
Anti-frigate weapons are hardly point defense anymore, but there are drones. And the mentioned support fleet.

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Victoria Stecker

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Re: More Guns?
« Reply #18 on: 10 Mar 2012, 11:44 »


@ Aldrith; you ass, now I recall all the nice stuff I'm missing because HW2 won't patch and let me install mods in Windows 7 :(


I am poking around the internet trying to find a fix for this (because fucking aldy had to link it and now I've got a craving). There are some forums where they've said the issue is with one of the files not updating properly, and supposedly the way to fix it is to install on a virtual machine, update, and then copy the update files over.

I've never done such a thing, curious if you'd tried it.

/derail
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BloodBird

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Re: More Guns?
« Reply #19 on: 10 Mar 2012, 12:16 »

TBH, this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-IPZhoM664

You are to blame for this. I've been writing the ME log and listening to music, among it a very sticky song at 11:10 in this video;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXZSaCJq3Qk&feature=related

You will take responsibility and tell me what it's called, because it's stuck in my head sieging my sanity and won't get out xO
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Esna Pitoojee

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Re: More Guns?
« Reply #20 on: 10 Mar 2012, 19:09 »

The thing is, Desi, even a moderation of incoming damage would be give you a VAST benefit over your enemies. If, for instance, the Gallente could learn to engage and destroy incoming missiles, they would seriously hamper the effectiveness of much of the Caldari Navy's lineup. If the Caldari Navy, meanwhile, could design a system to independently target and engage hostile drones within a certain distance of a ship, they would force the Gallente to retire or redesign many of their drone-centric designs.

I think the closest thing we've seen to "point defense" in the EVE universe is Firewall fleets that appeared briefly in 0.0 to counter Drake blobs; for those unfamiliar with the idea, the concept is that you have a number of battleships fit a couple smartbombs, and once the battle is joined they all continuously fire them, surrounding the fleet with a bubble of constant damage. Although the fleet takes damage from itself, of course, Smartbombs don't really do that much damage compared to the hundreds of missiles that are being neutralized as soon as they enter the radius of the multiple smartbombs.

Interestingly, I believe the idea didn't become more prevalent because it is extremely tricky to coordinate all the ships in a Firewall fleet - smartbombing battleships have to remain close together, logistics repairing battleships have to balance their reps across multiple targets, cap logis have to supply cap all around to keep the smartbombs running continuously - and it turned out to be simply easier to get more ships and return to the method of bludgeoning the enemy to death with numbers.

However, the reason it failed is not a flaw of point-defense systems - which would theoretically defend each ship independantly, not requiring fleet coordination - but of something more like a fleet defense net, which is a lot different than what we're talking about here.

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I like the implications of Gallentians being punched in the face by walking up to a Minmatar as they so freely use another person's culture as a fad.

Aldrith Shutaq

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Re: More Guns?
« Reply #21 on: 11 Mar 2012, 01:58 »

TBH, this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-IPZhoM664

You are to blame for this. I've been writing the ME log and listening to music, among it a very sticky song at 11:10 in this video;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXZSaCJq3Qk&feature=related

You will take responsibility and tell me what it's called, because it's stuck in my head sieging my sanity and won't get out xO

Oh deary me, I must correct this injustice I have done upon you, good sir! Mmm, let's take a listen. Oh that's a toughie, let's have a think...

Hmmmmm, you must mean this song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ns-MAji3yY

Oh, and before you ask, why yes, yes indeed:



Now here is moar PDS glory that we will never have in EVE for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3ylZrrmyuI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd_1Hcea6js&feature=related

Now, just so no one can -_- at this post being completely off-topic, I'll put in my two cents about this whole thing.

I've always wished we could have fights in EVE that looked more like what's reflected in these vids, just on a purely aesthetic basis. Simply put, they'd look amazing with bolts of plasma, whizzing lead and laser-light show zaps going in every direction. And in all honesty, I believe it's completely doable in the game if the balancing could just be worked out. On a technical level, all of these effects are not all that intensive on a system, plus they could be easily turned on or off according to system performance. HW2 is a very old game, and even back then the makers of the game and this particular mod managed to make the weapon effects (not the ships, mind you) look movie-cinematic quality. The game also had neat things like visible damage on ships, and varied ship destruction, which adds quite a lot to the atmosphere of epic spaceship battles. It might be possible that CCP could add this in an expansion, though it does seem like a lot of work just to make fights more pretty. For balancing, what might be nice would instead of all larger ships having PDS systems, we could instead get specialized PDS ships, like Ageis cruisers in modern fleets. These ships would specialize in shooting down missiles and drones and providing other creative defenses for other ships. Deploying chaff against incoming projectile shells, veering hybrid shots off course or disrupting laser shots with magnetic shields, ect. Think of them like RR support ships, but they increase ship survivability by increasing resistances and pewing the little shit. This way a lone BS still won't be able to take down a swarm of frigates, but we still get our pretty flashy shooty boats that fill the skies with plasma flak as they try to swat flies.

Oh, forgot a vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwJkdcYp0po&feature=endscreen&NR=1

* Aldrith Shutaq trolldad's out window.
« Last Edit: 11 Mar 2012, 02:01 by Aldrith Shutaq »
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BloodBird

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Re: More Guns?
« Reply #22 on: 11 Mar 2012, 02:28 »

No Aldrith. NOT the fucking COD ost shit. The one at 11:10 to 13:17.

I specifically pointed out the time; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXZSaCJq3Qk&feature=related

Btw, your sarcasm is not as entertaining as you think ;)

... nor is mine, come to think of it... :oops:
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Desiderya

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Re: More Guns?
« Reply #23 on: 11 Mar 2012, 05:32 »

The thing is, Desi, even a moderation of incoming damage would be give you a VAST benefit over your enemies. If, for instance, the Gallente could learn to engage and destroy incoming missiles, they would seriously hamper the effectiveness of much of the Caldari Navy's lineup. If the Caldari Navy, meanwhile, could design a system to independently target and engage hostile drones within a certain distance of a ship, they would force the Gallente to retire or redesign many of their drone-centric designs.

I see your point.
However you can either:
1) Devise a system that neutralizes a percentage of incoming fire through active countermeasures, such as point defenses.
or
2) Devise a system that neutralizes a percentage of incoming fire through passive countermeasures, such as a decreased susceptability to damage.

If we rightly, in my opinion, assume that EVE's ships are crammed to the brink with their equipment any noticeable addition would make it necessary to drop something to free resources. That means either lowering their efficiency in their specialized role, such as dropping a turret, or decreasing their passive defenses.
Since we have absolutely no idea how the numeric values of such a trade-off would be, we can not judge if it would be a good or a bad move.
We can, however, provide an in-world conclusion based on observations such as no navy using non-drone point defense ( actually, NPC's don't even use drones ) but employing highly specialized ships that are 100% effective until they literally disintegrate.

I don't want to sound cheesy by going "That's how it is ingame, durr", but I think you can actually wrestle some believable reasoning out of the situation.


Now, having said that, I think it would be a nice touch for capital ships. But since an addition like this is likely about 80% fluff, 20% usefulness ( unless it's going against game balance ) I don't see CCP fiddling with it. A second layer of turret hardpoints might be a huge task. I love eye candy like that, though. :s
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Lyn Farel

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Re: More Guns?
« Reply #24 on: 11 Mar 2012, 06:05 »


I've always wished we could have fights in EVE that looked more like what's reflected in these vids, just on a purely aesthetic basis. Simply put, they'd look amazing with bolts of plasma, whizzing lead and laser-light show zaps going in every direction. And in all honesty, I believe it's completely doable in the game if the balancing could just be worked out. On a technical level, all of these effects are not all that intensive on a system, plus they could be easily turned on or off according to system performance. HW2 is a very old game, and even back then the makers of the game and this particular mod managed to make the weapon effects (not the ships, mind you) look movie-cinematic quality. The game also had neat things like visible damage on ships, and varied ship destruction, which adds quite a lot to the atmosphere of epic spaceship battles. It might be possible that CCP could add this in an expansion, though it does seem like a lot of work just to make fights more pretty. For balancing, what might be nice would instead of all larger ships having PDS systems, we could instead get specialized PDS ships, like Ageis cruisers in modern fleets. These ships would specialize in shooting down missiles and drones and providing other creative defenses for other ships. Deploying chaff against incoming projectile shells, veering hybrid shots off course or disrupting laser shots with magnetic shields, ect. Think of them like RR support ships, but they increase ship survivability by increasing resistances and pewing the little shit. This way a lone BS still won't be able to take down a swarm of frigates, but we still get our pretty flashy shooty boats that fill the skies with plasma flak as they try to swat flies.

Oh, forgot a vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwJkdcYp0po&feature=endscreen&NR=1

* Aldrith Shutaq trolldad's out window.

At last I find someone thinking the exact same way I do.

Marry me.
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Esna Pitoojee

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Re: More Guns?
« Reply #25 on: 11 Mar 2012, 10:37 »

@ Ald - yeah, at this point I'm pretty much talking from a purely theoretical fictional standpoint. In terms of game mechanics, I well understand the reasoning for not including point defense on larger vessels and instead looking to try to force fleets to coordinate their action to provide local defense against smaller craft.

I see your point.
However you can either:
1) Devise a system that neutralizes a percentage of incoming fire through active countermeasures, such as point defenses.
or
2) Devise a system that neutralizes a percentage of incoming fire through passive countermeasures, such as a decreased susceptability to damage.

If we rightly, in my opinion, assume that EVE's ships are crammed to the brink with their equipment any noticeable addition would make it necessary to drop something to free resources. That means either lowering their efficiency in their specialized role, such as dropping a turret, or decreasing their passive defenses.
Since we have absolutely no idea how the numeric values of such a trade-off would be, we can not judge if it would be a good or a bad move.
We can, however, provide an in-world conclusion based on observations such as no navy using non-drone point defense ( actually, NPC's don't even use drones ) but employing highly specialized ships that are 100% effective until they literally disintegrate.

I don't want to sound cheesy by going "That's how it is ingame, durr", but I think you can actually wrestle some believable reasoning out of the situation.

Fair enough reasoning, and yes - if a ship could be said to loose some of its effectiveness due to the addition of another set of systems, I could see why it would be avoided, particularly in some of the less flexible hulls.

I'll make an arguement here that some limited CIWS should still be present. Here's why.

At current in real life - and yes, I know I'm throwing in a massive red herring by explicitely bringing up the "but IRL" arguement; it seems to me that something that works now should work 20,000 years in the future, though - there are two general types of point defense systems.

The first are "ship-integrated systems", which refer to systems which are linked to the ships' main fire control systems and require significant modification of the hull in order to fit a mount, ammunition hold, and any additional fire control equipment; in return, these systems have considerably greater stopping capability and are more likely to form the main portion of an antimissile shield. Examples are the US SM-2 missiles and Dutch 'Goalkeeper' system. Systems like these, I could understand the designers of ships in New Eden not wishing to add to ships at random, as they would likely reduce the abilities of some more focused designs.

The second class, however, are what I think of as "plug-and-play" systems - largely self-contained, not requiring major modifications to the hull, they can essentially be bolted onto the hull in any fortuitous location, plugged into the ship's main power supply, and allowed to operate autonomously. The downside is that they tend to have far more limited effectiveness than the first type. As has been pointed out, however, because of EVE's ships' spectacular ability to absorb damage, even a minor reduction in incoming damage - say, 5 to 10% - would be a not insignificant tactical advantage.
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I like the implications of Gallentians being punched in the face by walking up to a Minmatar as they so freely use another person's culture as a fad.

Graelyn

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Re: More Guns?
« Reply #26 on: 11 Mar 2012, 11:54 »

I always figured that every fighter was representing a squadron of them.

*shrugs*
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If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate!

Aldrith Shutaq

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Re: More Guns?
« Reply #27 on: 11 Mar 2012, 12:36 »

No Aldrith. NOT the fucking COD ost shit. The one at 11:10 to 13:17.

I specifically pointed out the time; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXZSaCJq3Qk&feature=related

Btw, your sarcasm is not as entertaining as you think ;)

... nor is mine, come to think of it... :oops:

* Aldrith Shutaq scratches head.

That's... exactly the one I linked though.

Wait a sec, are you counter-trolling me?! Because if you are... ooooh boy you're gonna git it boooooooi...

Edit 5 mins later: WAIT A SECOND YOU ARE ARRRGGGGGGG-*explodes in a ball of flame*
« Last Edit: 11 Mar 2012, 12:41 by Aldrith Shutaq »
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Desiderya

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Re: More Guns?
« Reply #28 on: 11 Mar 2012, 12:46 »

The second class, however, are what I think of as "plug-and-play" systems - largely self-contained, not requiring major modifications to the hull, they can essentially be bolted onto the hull in any fortuitous location, plugged into the ship's main power supply, and allowed to operate autonomously. The downside is that they tend to have far more limited effectiveness than the first type. As has been pointed out, however, because of EVE's ships' spectacular ability to absorb damage, even a minor reduction in incoming damage - say, 5 to 10% - would be a not insignificant tactical advantage.

This is the point where the CPU/Powergrid foundations reveal themselves as being mainly a game mechanic. Coming up with a reasoning behind the strict modularisation of various systems is on the path down to madness. The ingame answer would be: "There are no fitting slots left", which obviously doesn't make much sense.
I still think the ship's resilience is the main reason for not using them. A missile hitting an IRL vessel is a huge problem, a missile hitting something in EVE is a minor incident. We're now talking mainly about missile defense, but when reverting to 'active countermeasures' we have some in our EWAR arsenals, just not against missiles unless we're using the defender missiles, not every ship can and basically no pilot will use (NPC's aside).


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Silver Night

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Re: More Guns?
« Reply #29 on: 11 Mar 2012, 14:08 »

I always figured that every fighter was representing a squadron of them.

*shrugs*


This, basically. The way I think about it is that something like fighters, drones, etc have a certain level of abstraction.

I recall reading in a players guide - maybe for D&D? - that hitpoints aren't directly representative of 'health' - they also include things like injuries that are not as bad as they otherwise might have been due to dodging, or armor, or what have you. Luck and increased skill.

Similarly, maybe you could think of the vastly increased damage that a BS can soak up as in part owing to point defenses we can't see mitigating some of that damage.

Obviously it is imperfect, but it can help with immersion, at least for me.  :D
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