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[Katrina Oniseki]

OOCly, we simply click a few buttons and Graviton Physics is set to train to level 5 over the next month.

But what really happens IC? Are we really to believe that our characters sit down with a book about highly complicated and advanced graviton physics and learn it down to a razor's edge over a mere month? My guess is no. Instead, I assume there is some sort of neural uplink going on.

What follows below is my imagination at work. If anyone has PF to correct me with, please quote and link it.

I think Capsuleers are given access to a vast library of information on one topic, probably provided through some centralized computer network owned by CONCORD or the Big Four. When we buy 'skillbooks', we aren't actually buying books. We're buying an all access pass to that section of the electronic library. Over the course of the training time, we are either consciously or subconsciously fed the appropriate learning material through our neural links 'Matrix style'. Remember the part where Neo closes his eyes for a few seconds, then wakes up with all sorts of panting... "I know Kung Fu!". That's what's going on here, only at a slower rate, maybe.

The expense of the access passes are likely related to the size or importance of the information being bought. For example, the skills to fly a frigate are far far less complicated or dangerous than the skills required to fly a carrier. You're paying for several entire mainframes of information to fly that Thanatos, but you only pay for a couple hard drives of info for that Atron.

Now, I assume this technology is also available on a much smaller and less secure/safe scale for non Capsuleer skills. I assume some upscale bookstores would sell a very very small selection of access keys to their own library of electronic books. Sortof like Amazon Kindle. You can order cookbooks and learn how to bake bread, or you can order a book about swimming and learn how to swim. Or maybe Kung Fu, like Neo?

These smaller scale skills would not take as long to train, being far less complex. They may only take seconds to train. The cost would be pretty excessive for anyone but the most wealthy, where it would be far more cost effective to just buy a holobook and read the damn thing. But for us, time is a precious resource, and money is not. So we can train up how to go skiing at a double diamond slope in about thirty seconds.

Of course, for mundane things like this, practice does make perfect. Just because you can fly a Zealot doesn't mean you'll be any good at it. Same with cooking, or skiing, or kung-fu. So, people would be able to effective 'read a book' in a few seconds flat, but they still need to apply that knowledge, or learn how to apply it in practical use.

That's about all I've got for now. What does everyone else think?

[BloodBird]

I've had my own idea for how the skill training system works IC for the longest time, and I later happened upon a good story where part of it describes how it might work (as I envisioned it, mind you) in-character, and considerably better than I might have done.

Most of the 4th and the earlier parts of the 5th posts in this below story by Shaalira is what you want to read;
http://eleutheria.destori.com/FluidRouter/index.php?topic=101.msg345#msg345

[Yoshito Sanders]

That's basically how I've always imagined it too.

[Gottii]

http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=12-07-10

I think that Chronicle has a lot to say about how capsuleers learn their skills so quickly.

[Lyn Farel]

IIRC they are data skillbooks that are injected in the capsuleer implants and "slowly" processed into their memory and brain skill centers.

[lallara zhuul]

The 'skills' that you have as a capsuleer are just degrees of your brain being a certain level of hardware that interacts with the ship board computer.

Frigate 5 does not mean that your character can fly anything worth shit.

It means that the frigate that your brain is attached to is percentually better than one that does not have a capsuleer as part of its hardware.

If the pilot is a non-trained numpty, like all the capsuleers are when they graduate from their schools, they will get destroyed by anyone that actually can fly the ships in combat. Percental increase of zero still makes you a numpty.

You (as a player) have to learn to pilot the ships in combat yourselves.

Of course when you are playing with generating new neural pathways into the brains, there really is not that much difference between changing the brains for better interaction with hardware of the ship and with adding information into the brain.

The problem arises with kinaesthetic sense.

Getting information is easy, fine and dandy.

Having your body actually knowing what the hell it should do to get the right outcome is a whole different kettle of fish.

For example.

Draw a straight line on a piece of paper.

You have the information in your head for it, you know how you should do it, but you have to practice like crazy to get it done.
That is why it takes so much time to actually learn to draw anything right.

That is why the Matrix analogy actually is very fitting.

Neo was a complete and utter pussy outside of the Matrix.

Adding the kineasthetic information (because everyones body is different) would be a lot more complicated than just adding the information.

[Yoshito Sanders]

Neo was a complete and utter pussy outside of the Matrix.

Except not, because the second two movies were terrible.

[Nmaro Makari]

As I remember, PF as according to "The Empyrean Age" is that it is somewhat matrix-y stuff goes on for capsuleers. It literally gets uploaded and you learn it thus.

[Random Sentience]

http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=12-07-10

I think that Chronicle has a lot to say about how capsuleers learn their skills so quickly.

Actually, that's how you make a True Slave Decryption Node.

EDIT:

IIRC they are data skillbooks that are injected in the capsuleer implants and "slowly" processed into their memory and brain skill centers.

Yes. There was an article after some guy reached 100 million skillpoints that explained this, as well as the fact that "Skill points" is a term used by the SOCT to judge skill ratings, and had become common parlance among capsuleers.

Bonus trivia: As good as the article was, it did fail to mention that after 100 million skillpoints you are susceptible to being taken over by Enheduanni "They-who-must-not-be-named".

 

[Ghost Hunter]

http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=12-07-10

I think that Chronicle has a lot to say about how capsuleers learn their skills so quickly.

Actually, that's how you make a True Slave Decryption Node.

lol

OOCly, we simply click a few buttons and Graviton Physics is set to train to level 5 over the next month.

But what really happens IC? Are we really to believe that our characters sit down with a book about highly complicated and advanced graviton physics and learn it down to a razor's edge over a mere month? My guess is no. Instead, I assume there is some sort of neural uplink going on.

What follows below is my imagination at work. If anyone has PF to correct me with, please quote and link it.

I think Capsuleers are given access to a vast library of information on one topic, probably provided through some centralized computer network owned by CONCORD or the Big Four. When we buy 'skillbooks', we aren't actually buying books. We're buying an all access pass to that section of the electronic library. Over the course of the training time, we are either consciously or subconsciously fed the appropriate learning material through our neural links 'Matrix style'. Remember the part where Neo closes his eyes for a few seconds, then wakes up with all sorts of panting... "I know Kung Fu!". That's what's going on here, only at a slower rate, maybe.

The expense of the access passes are likely related to the size or importance of the information being bought. For example, the skills to fly a frigate are far far less complicated or dangerous than the skills required to fly a carrier. You're paying for several entire mainframes of information to fly that Thanatos, but you only pay for a couple hard drives of info for that Atron.

Now, I assume this technology is also available on a much smaller and less secure/safe scale for non Capsuleer skills. I assume some upscale bookstores would sell a very very small selection of access keys to their own library of electronic books. Sortof like Amazon Kindle. You can order cookbooks and learn how to bake bread, or you can order a book about swimming and learn how to swim. Or maybe Kung Fu, like Neo?

These smaller scale skills would not take as long to train, being far less complex. They may only take seconds to train. The cost would be pretty excessive for anyone but the most wealthy, where it would be far more cost effective to just buy a holobook and read the damn thing. But for us, time is a precious resource, and money is not. So we can train up how to go skiing at a double diamond slope in about thirty seconds.

Of course, for mundane things like this, practice does make perfect. Just because you can fly a Zealot doesn't mean you'll be any good at it. Same with cooking, or skiing, or kung-fu. So, people would be able to effective 'read a book' in a few seconds flat, but they still need to apply that knowledge, or learn how to apply it in practical use.

That's about all I've got for now. What does everyone else think?

The root of the issue is what your character knows versus what you know. Due to the nature of things, what your character knows cannot really exceed what you as a person know. You can only limit what your character knows from what you know.

Two Capsuleers reputed to have university level understanding of graviton physics cannot argue it in real time if one of the players behind it has no idea what the hell a graviton even is. A healthy amount of handwaving and agreed-overlooking have to take place, something that can often lower the overall quality of the piece if not done carefully. This is not including the antagonistic approach some other characters would take as a means of seeing if you 'really know' what you say you know.

Your idea is generally a picture I would agree with, fine details aside. I believe Skillbooks contain the complete knowledge base necessary for their given topic, for instance, and not a central library. This is largely the case because the Capsuleer skillbooks can be trained in areas where one would feasibly not have access to that library.

My personal perception is the topic is that a person is given the complete knowledge base that sits in their implants. As the knowledge base is programmed into their brain, neural conditioning essentially, they absorb the knowledge. At a neurally safe rate that is (see skill training time). There are ways to circumvent this however, as seen by the Nation's capability of creating day old Supercapital pilots with no adverse (apparently) effects.

Knowledge itself is useless without practical experience, something Zhuul mentions in better detail. I agree with this, as it allows healthy explaination of the skill discrepancy between Capsuleers because of how their players work. One of my characters may have perfect trading skills, but I still have fuck all idea how the market works.

I do think having the skills allow for more 'rp validation', though. I would generally believe and allow a professional hacker Capsuleer to override one of my ships, for instance, if I knew they had level 5 in all the electronic warfare and hacking skills. A day old character in an Ibis isn't going to do much, and neither would a three year old merchant.

[Mithfindel]

Bonus trivia: As good as the article was, it did fail to mention that after 100 million skillpoints you are susceptible to being taken over by Enheduanni "They-who-must-not-be-named".

NTRabbit was hired by CCP?

On topic, one news article did expand on what skillbooks are (and was promptly taken down once this was noticed). Practically, yes, the skillbooks get uploaded and then help to interface with various systems. Like Lallara noted, knowing how something works and how to operate it doesn't mean that you can do that efficiently. This is easy considering ship skills. Gunnery skills perhaps let you fine-tune some parameters. Once you're qualified (at least in theory) how the overload switch works, you are allowed to interface with said switch. Doesn't mean you wouldn't burn your guns and then die defenseless. This works both ways: Green capsuleers having the qualification to move a ship hull aren't necessarily very good at fighting in it. And veteran capsuleers likely know their ships in ways regular crew can't, as all the knowledge about the ship (usually dispersed amongst navigation, gunnery, sensors, engineering etc.) is now centralized in the capsuleer.

[tarunik]

Bonus trivia: As good as the article was, it did fail to mention that after 100 million skillpoints you are susceptible to being taken over by Enheduanni "They-who-must-not-be-named".

NTRabbit was hired by CCP?

On topic, one news article did expand on what skillbooks are (and was promptly taken down once this was noticed). Practically, yes, the skillbooks get uploaded and then help to interface with various systems. Like Lallara noted, knowing how something works and how to operate it doesn't mean that you can do that efficiently. This is easy considering ship skills. Gunnery skills perhaps let you fine-tune some parameters. Once you're qualified (at least in theory) how the overload switch works, you are allowed to interface with said switch. Doesn't mean you wouldn't burn your guns and then die defenseless. This works both ways: Green capsuleers having the qualification to move a ship hull aren't necessarily very good at fighting in it. And veteran capsuleers likely know their ships in ways regular crew can't, as all the knowledge about the ship (usually dispersed amongst navigation, gunnery, sensors, engineering etc.) is now centralized in the capsuleer.

Makes perfectly good sense to me, especially the part about how veteran capsuleers are able to do things with their ships that no non-capsuleer crew would think of (manual maneuvering to alter one's angular velocity relative to a target comes to mind, as this requires cognizance of both maneuvering the ship and what your weapons are doing at the same time).

[Desiderya]

Makes perfectly good sense to me, especially the part about how veteran capsuleers are able to do things with their ships that no non-capsuleer crew would think of (manual maneuvering to alter one's angular velocity relative to a target comes to mind, as this requires cognizance of both maneuvering the ship and what your weapons are doing at the same time).

I wouldn't consider that advanced at all. Rather a very basic technique. The advanced aspect is that the capsuleer is doing it more efficient than a conventional crew. You have to bear in mind that in reality, the first fire-control systems were developed for WWI warships. The problems are the same: Hit your target with multiple guns while you and the target itself are moving. The in-space situation is merely a vast increase on scope (i.e. relative speeds and distances), but there should be no reason why there shouldn't be fire-control computers in the world of EVE that are capable of doing/supporting that task.

[tarunik]

Makes perfectly good sense to me, especially the part about how veteran capsuleers are able to do things with their ships that no non-capsuleer crew would think of (manual maneuvering to alter one's angular velocity relative to a target comes to mind, as this requires cognizance of both maneuvering the ship and what your weapons are doing at the same time).

I wouldn't consider that advanced at all. Rather a very basic technique. The advanced aspect is that the capsuleer is doing it more efficient than a conventional crew. You have to bear in mind that in reality, the first fire-control systems were developed for WWI warships. The problems are the same: Hit your target with multiple guns while you and the target itself are moving. The in-space situation is merely a vast increase on scope (i.e. relative speeds and distances), but there should be no reason why there shouldn't be fire-control computers in the world of EVE that are capable of doing/supporting that task.

Indeed, our fire-control computers do compute the optimum gunnery solution for a given range and angular velocity.  However, what I was referring to was maneuvering the entire ship to minimize one's angular, something that would require the helmsman on a non-capsuleer ship to be aware of what the guns are doing (are they hitting well? missing altogether?) as well as the behavior of the target.

[Desiderya]

Standardized maneuvers and lots of guiding by the ships computer systems.
Even the game AI does lots of these things. It's basically: Stay in optimal range, stay in optimal angular velocity (i.e. as high as possible without missing yourself). Using projected flightpaths of the targets is standard, too.
And it's not always about "Staying in optimal". Overshooting, for example.

Also why should the helmsman not be able to know what his ship - all of his ship - or the target is doing?
They won't rival a capsuleer - but that doesn't make them unable to pull the same maneuvers as capsuleers as long as we're not talking about pure numeric details.