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[Silas Vitalia]

How much can capsuleers reasonably expect to know with regards to Jamyl being a clone?

Trying to think about this from a 'logical' standpoint regarding our characters.  Jamyl died at the trials years ago, live, and everyone saw it...only to return suddenly years later.  I understand that publicly for the Amarr Loyalist bloc, they essentially have to stick with the party line regarding some sort of "miracle" or they would have extreme difficulties with the Imperials.  Hell anyone in the Empire going out publicly against the official story would soon find their heads on a pike.  The other empires, not so much of course. They have to have the opinion that she is a clone. Most Amarrians who are not -extremely- superstitiously religious must suspect.

But Capsuleers? Been having some long chats with my fellow Khanid brothers and sisters ooc and we feel as if the Imperials (the officials and capsuleers) sort of....  got in line behind an obvious and egregious sacrelige without much fuss.

Granted pragmatically she had a superweapon and was just fine to dangle it over the heads of any royal houses lest they try and test her... but no real objections?

Some of my friends and I just see some interesting opportunities for some RP plots regarding this issue, but I'm curious what we can reasonably assume as capsuleers regarding this issue? 

I'll also say we are thinking that Khanid II's situation is quite different. Succession Rituals can and have changed over time (suicide rule, direct combat, champions, etc), but Continuity of Flesh has never been broken, and seems a central tenant of the faith (Royal Flesh).

What say you all?

[Louella Dougans]

Yonis Ardishapur built a cathedral and dedicated it to the very minor and obscure Saint that developed the Sacred Flesh doctrine.

The Theology Council said that with her being the sole remaining candidate (the others having withdrawn) the only acceptable course of action was to confirm her as empress-elect, and there was "no acceptable explanation at this time" for her return.

sauce:
http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2213&tid=4
http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2491&tid=2

Yonis Knows. The Council Knows. People who understand the Empire Know.

But the nature of things is, that only Yonis Ardishapur has the ability to state things publically, because only he has enough power and influence to secure his position, such that the Empress cannot remove him without a civil war. An Empress attacking one of the Heir Families just because she doesn't like him? Unthinkable.


That all said, the background has been written that everyone in the Empire rejoices, and the players do not have much leeway. It's a bit

Also, "Express my opinion? What am I? A Gallentean? I Think Not!"

[Silas Vitalia]

Yonis Ardishapur built a cathedral and dedicated it to the very minor and obscure Saint that developed the Sacred Flesh doctrine.

The Theology Council said that with her being the sole remaining candidate (the others having withdrawn) the only acceptable course of action was to confirm her as empress-elect, and there was "no acceptable explanation at this time" for her return.

sauce:
http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2213&tid=4
http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2491&tid=2

Yonis Knows. The Council Knows. People who understand the Empire Know.

But the nature of things is, that only Yonis Ardishapur has the ability to state things publically, because only he has enough power and influence to secure his position, such that the Empress cannot remove him without a civil war. An Empress attacking one of the Heir Families just because she doesn't like him? Unthinkable.


That all said, the background has been written that everyone in the Empire rejoices, and the players do not have much leeway. It's a bit

Also, "Express my opinion? What am I? A Gallentean? I Think Not!"

Thank you Louella! Very good points.

I suppose that brings us to another question though, what about Capsuleers? They are somewhat shielded from reprisals for speaking their minds. 

Granted game mechanics don't catch up with how it would be, IE if one of us came out on the summit with 'JAMYL IS A CLONE' I'm sure the Empire would probably quickly sieze any of their property on Amarr and imprison some family, etc.... or would they?

I think this is some interesting grounds for story development. 

I love the cathedral being built as an obvious affront but done in a clever way. Nice one Ardishapur.

[Esna Pitoojee]

So, first off, I'll repost what I was saying in OOC last night when this was being discussed:

This is why I dislike FW. It completely flattened sub-factional differences. How can you quibble about little internal differences like this when you have an outwardly effective monarch on the throne and there are godless heathens spilling over the borders, etc etc.



Now, with regard to PF surrounding this:

That all said, the background has been written that everyone in the Empire rejoices, and the players do not have much leeway. It's a bit

This bit makes it the hardest to try and rabblerouse about this, honestly - while major Holders may very well understand what's going on, I do sometimes wonder if many Minor holders are happy enough not to look to closely and get back to their inter-Holder squabblings. Certainly, I'd think the vast majority of commoners and slaves that give a damn about faith are all walking the official line, not because they fear what would happen if they deviated but because after a few years of the local priests ramming the 'unexplained miracle' line down their throats, they actually believe it.

Finally, I do also wonder if there are some people in the Empire who understand what happened, but take the fact that Jamyl hasn't been struck down by a mysterious disease or a bolt from above as tacit, if not explicit approval from God for the violation of the Sacred Flesh doctrine.

[tarunik]

Yonis Ardishapur built a cathedral and dedicated it to the very minor and obscure Saint that developed the Sacred Flesh doctrine.

The Theology Council said that with her being the sole remaining candidate (the others having withdrawn) the only acceptable course of action was to confirm her as empress-elect, and there was "no acceptable explanation at this time" for her return.

sauce:
http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2213&tid=4
http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2491&tid=2

Yonis Knows. The Council Knows. People who understand the Empire Know.

But the nature of things is, that only Yonis Ardishapur has the ability to state things publically, because only he has enough power and influence to secure his position, such that the Empress cannot remove him without a civil war. An Empress attacking one of the Heir Families just because she doesn't like him? Unthinkable.


That all said, the background has been written that everyone in the Empire rejoices, and the players do not have much leeway. It's a bit

Also, "Express my opinion? What am I? A Gallentean? I Think Not!"

Thank you Louella! Very good points.

I suppose that brings us to another question though, what about Capsuleers? They are somewhat shielded from reprisals for speaking their minds. 

Granted game mechanics don't catch up with how it would be, IE if one of us came out on the summit with 'JAMYL IS A CLONE' I'm sure the Empire would probably quickly sieze any of their property on Amarr and imprison some family, etc.... or would they?

I think this is some interesting grounds for story development. 

I love the cathedral being built as an obvious affront but done in a clever way. Nice one Ardishapur.

I wonder if the Empire would try to seize the property of a w-space dweller...(because I can see sending an Imperial fleet into capsuleer-occupied W-space working out quite well for the Empire. My iskies are on them collapsing the route in and then having their scanner go pop...and then all they can do is cry.  Empire tears best tears?)

[Publius Valerius]

Yonis Ardishapur built a cathedral and dedicated it to the very minor and obscure Saint that developed the Sacred Flesh doctrine.

sauce:
http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2491&tid=2

Yonis Knows. The Council Knows. People who understand the Empire Know.

But the nature of things is, that only Yonis Ardishapur has the ability to state things publically, because only he has enough power and influence to secure his position, such that the Empress cannot remove him without a civil war. An Empress attacking one of the Heir Families just because she doesn't like him? Unthinkable.

Nice article.. I totally over read this part (I have rework the Ardishapur Family page weeks ago). this is actually quit interesting. Im not surprised that it comes from Yonis, he has an aura of symbolism around him. Like during that time as our King Khanid II got his Privy seat and his opposition to it (not appearing at first) -> then the whole title diskussion.
But in the end I dont see him as leader of an opposition-movement, because on the Khaind topic he had the same attitude, but like I said after a symbolic insult he gets mostly quiet and after that, he starts even to cooperate.

So now; he as his Ammatar Mandate and his tour thats it; and people shouldnt forget all this heirs are almost new in position (I mean new for amarr terms).

Nevertheless it is quite a goldnugget what you have found.

But like said before:
She (Jamyl I) has some point what speaks for her:
*The 'unexplained miracle'
*The Mekhios Battle
*That Dochuta Karsoth is gone
*That the other heirs are actually seems to be, somehow even happy that, their wasnt any Amarr succession rituals where they have lost their life.

[Publius Valerius]

So, first off, I'll repost what I was saying in OOC last night when this was being discussed:

This is why I dislike FW. It completely flattened sub-factional differences. How can you quibble about little internal differences like this when you have an outwardly effective monarch on the throne and there are godless heathens spilling over the borders, etc etc.

That could be really a topic on his own. I think that is one of the major immersion points for CCP Abraxes, just a guts feeling; but we have already see the new faction channels. So hopefully EVE doesnt gets just in to the deepness, but also in the width of all the Factions.

[Silas Vitalia]

Trying to steer a bit back to original question,

What reprials would we expect from capsuleers who discuss this openly? Would the Empire come and sieze thier planetside property? Their families surely woul be ostracized?  Would sympathetic local holders keep them safe?

[Publius Valerius]

What reprials would we expect from capsuleers who discuss this openly?

Option 1: The Empire does nothing, IGNORE AND CONTINUE. This is most likely the case, because the transactioncost are to high, to be more precise the "enforcement cost for decision.

Option 2: The Empire does act. [1] Jamyl has to define this action, what it actually is [2] She has to declare this action against the law [3] she has to reinforce this laws or she will look like a papertiger. So most likely this isnt the case, because the cost are to high, and the outcome to low.

So I see this next question as what if Option 2 plus citizen of the Empire?

Would the Empire come and sieze thier planetside property?

Most likely to get some cost back.

Their families surely woul be ostracized? 

Only if she or ALLIES had to gain something from it, like power or property etc....

Would sympathetic local holders keep them safe?

No. What have they to win, they cannt count on that the capsuleers win this conflict, and give them gift at least. They cannt even count that that conflict/war gives them a"Gallente Movie" like happy ending (meaning: No gift but with a heart warming ending, where the grandma swings her tissue to the sunset flying capsuleers. You know Gallente stuff ).


But could be more fascinating is what would capsuleers do and say?
My prediction:
Top group:
* IGNORE AND CONTINUE, such a classical move....
* Dont agree, and doing nothing.
* People which are agree, but doing nothing.
Good middlefield:
* Tebow-Effect. Means even when all the reality based facts on your side, they will annoy with their feelings (How much they love X or Y, or he/she is a X or Y like me and so on). You shouldnt forget most people dont make their decision based on stats or reality.
* like Esna said "How can you quibble about little internal differences like this when you have an outwardly effective monarch on the throne and there are godless heathens spilling over the borders, etc etc."
Bottom group:
* People which are agree, and do something.
* Nice RP action with alot of fun




Which group would you be?... As for me I see me in one, in this group I would go for "IGNORE AND CONTINUE".... this move is just to juicy

_____________
Edit: Sorry I miss read the first question, "from capsuleers" as "for capsuleers".

[tarunik]

What reprials would we expect from capsuleers who discuss this openly?

Option 1: The Empire does nothing, IGNORE AND CONTINUE. This is most likely the case, because the transactioncost are to high, to be more precise the "enforcement cost for decision.

Option 2: The Empire does act. [1] Jamyl has to define this action, what it actually is [2] She has to declare this action against the law [3] she has to reinforce this laws or she will look like a papertiger. So most likely this isnt the case, because the cost are to high, and the outcome to low.

So I see this next question as what if Option 2 plus citizen of the Empire?

Would the Empire come and sieze thier planetside property?

Most likely to get some cost back.

Their families surely woul be ostracized? 

Only if she or ALLIES had to gain something from it, like power or property etc....

Would sympathetic local holders keep them safe?

No. What have they to win, they cannt count on that the capsuleers win this conflict, and give them gift at least. They cannt even count that that conflict/war gives them a"Gallente Movie" like happy ending (meaning: No gift but with a heart warming ending, where the grandma swings her tissue to the sunset flying capsuleers. You know Gallente stuff ).

And then you run into issues with some Amarrian capsuleers who live in out of the way places...I can think of a few of my W-space dwelling friends who Jamyl probably could not reach even with the long arm of, say, the Theology Council at her disposal.

[Mithfindel]

Sillyness. Technically, a Holder with his (or her) own capsuleers could likely use "heretic" declarations by other capsuleers as a casus belli if they had something to gain from it. Of course, Holders are not allowed to keep their own fleets, but I understand they can have personals ships armed. So a group of people with their personal ships travelling together is no navy, honest! In theory, the Sacred Throne might be the source of all the authority in the Empire, but in practice, there's most likely a whole lot of Holder action going on "for the Empress" which get never heard in Dam-Torsad.

[Silas Vitalia]

Well let's imagine a senario in which a well known loyalist, say someone like Archbishop, etc comes out after a few months of deep religious consultation and announces he can no longer support Jamyl's claim based on x, y, z, whatever.

Do the baseliners care? Do the Authorities care? He's a well-known celebrity and respected religious figure to thousands of people accross the Empire.

It's "technically" treasonous, but we know more than a few holders and heirs agree.  Would he get clandestine support? Or more like "yes we agree with you behind the scenes but you're a fool for being public"

Or something like Tetrimon who of course crashed and burned but did bring about real change at a high personal cost? Heretic in his lifetime, sainthood after?

Interesting subject matter.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

Well let's imagine a senario in which a well known loyalist, say someone like Archbishop, etc comes out after a few months of deep religious consultation and announces he can no longer support Jamyl's claim based on x, y, z, whatever.

Do the baseliners care? Do the Authorities care? He's a well-known celebrity and respected religious figure to thousands of people accross the Empire.

It's "technically" treasonous, but we know more than a few holders and heirs agree.  Would he get clandestine support? Or more like "yes we agree with you behind the scenes but you're a fool for being public"

Or something like Tetrimon who of course crashed and burned but did bring about real change at a high personal cost? Heretic in his lifetime, sainthood after?

Interesting subject matter.

That would be kinda interesting.

A known loyalist declares her to be an abomination and gets a nice fat negative faction (and likely Emperor Family & Sarum) standing as a thank you from the powers-that-be.

Where would they go? The State I assume (who likely wouldn't care about religious squabbles).

Actually. Shooting your mouth off IC, especially in places like the IGS, should have consequences for your standings in general. That's my opnion anyway.

[BloodBird]

Well let's imagine a senario in which a well known loyalist, say someone like Archbishop, etc comes out after a few months of deep religious consultation and announces he can no longer support Jamyl's claim based on x, y, z, whatever.

Do the baseliners care? Do the Authorities care? He's a well-known celebrity and respected religious figure to thousands of people accross the Empire.

It's "technically" treasonous, but we know more than a few holders and heirs agree.  Would he get clandestine support? Or more like "yes we agree with you behind the scenes but you're a fool for being public"

Or something like Tetrimon who of course crashed and burned but did bring about real change at a high personal cost? Heretic in his lifetime, sainthood after?

Interesting subject matter.

That would be kinda interesting.

A known loyalist declares her to be an abomination and gets a nice fat negative faction (and likely Emperor Family & Sarum) standing as a thank you from the powers-that-be.

Where would they go? The State I assume (who likely wouldn't care about religious squabbles).

Actually. Shooting your mouth off IC, especially in places like the IGS, should have consequences for your standings in general. That's my opnion anyway.

Same for me. Defecting from X Y Z and blaming them for all your issues and crap? Hefty negative standing from X Y Z faction and and NPC responce that your considered fair game to 'loyalists'. Announcing, starting, then going ahead with a pro- X Y Z corp/idea/plan and proving your worth? Some pluss standing and who knows, some hand-holdable thanks after a long history of service, perhaps.

Much like everyone else, Amarrian Imperials are and can be divided on so much. With Religion in the picture 'holier than thou' becomes an issue. The 'true' faithful support/want to abolish Slavery, the 'true' faithful supports/reviles holy/zombie Empress Jamyl etc etc etc.

As players we all know facts about the game like Jamyl's 'cheating' to become Empress. Likely a load of NPC's and characters suspect or 'knows' as well, as discussed - the big debate IC becomes who is right - is Jamyl God's glorified mouth-piece and thus God ressurected her in a miracle? Is she merely a human who, much like Khanid, wanted power and grabbed it anyway she could? Debatable.

As far as PF is concerned a 'get-in-line-or-else' culture like the Amarr or Caldari leave little room for personal oppinion if you want to be very public about it - Stating publicly that Jamyl's reign is NOT supported by the TC/God/whoever is supposedly a bad idea. Far as game-mechanics are concerned, the Empire don't seem to care one iota if some up-start egger bitches about her, no-matter who that might be.

This is a bit of a shame - players have to make up their own penalities for actions, if they bother at all - players who make major choices like defection/treason or being verbal on touchy subjects etc, either go on pretending their to OP for silly NPC retribution, or make up penalties for themselves.

It's my oppinion that, as proven in the Sansha arc - players get their sec-rating altered as a reaction to helping the sansha's - CCP's employee's can assume the position of NPC characters and interact with players. If 1-2 people were actively paying attention to player actions on the IGS or in space, and responding properly, it could and would add to immersion IMMENSELY and make EVE's universe seem alot more alive. People would be more careful with what they do or say, and instead of loads of supposed hot air leading to nothing, we can end up getting players responded to with actions and reactions.

Bad-mouthing Jamyl on the IGS when your a high-empire-standing Amarrian toon? Enjoy having +3.5 with the Empire reduced to -5.0 with the Empire, heretic.

Announcing your defection from whatever and swearing to kill every citizen of every planet under their control, as some toons are want to do? Enjoy a -10.0 and instant national-enemy status, terrorist fool.

I'd love it, but YMMW.

[lallara zhuul]

Amarrian epic arc.

The guy joined Sansha because he was disillusioned by this Jamyl debacle.

Book of Names.

You get your name taken out of it and your whole family loses its name.

Basically Dark Ages excommunication from the Church, it's free for all for everyone when it comes to you, your family and its belongings.

Amarr bloc giving any kind of support.

No.

You would get a few kindly pats on your back and a few thumbs up, but nothing concrete.

Personally I believe every one who was RPing a 'religious Amarrian' when TEA hit knew that they were selling out their characters views when they decided to go with the 'miracle' hand waving, it was all about keeping your play style as it was. Those that didn't either left the game or were ostracized.