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[Merdaneth]

Incorrect, I believe. Rebuilding a system, in general, can be done through establishing planetary economic activity to provide a substitute economic base to what was lost on Seyllin Prime, thus providing a place for the system's economic potential to the local astropolitical entity, in this case, the Federation, to be renewed. Planetary interaction, in other words.

That is the way you pretend to rebuild the economy. But even your character would be able to see no isk is spent on labor, and no goods are sold to NPCs. I would not notice any difference in NPC response if you completely filled all the planets with hundreds of installations or they remained empty. You simply cannot effect the NPC world because it isn't there. The best thing you could hope for is a CCP news message validating your effort.

If the use this more generalized objective, reestablishing economic potential to the Federation, then our opportunities are even more abundant. Capsuleer industrial activity, including starship manufacturing, ore processing, trade and commerce, are all valid ways to implement such a policy. As is limiting pirate activity through destroying cosmic anomalies/deadspaces, belt rats, that would otherwise hamper civilian non-capsuleer commercial traffic.

I could mission all day long, or for that matter, shoot convoys all day long, and there would be no noticable change. System security ratings would change, stations would fall into disrepair, convoys would remain at their normal strength.

To argue otherwise would be to invalidate the roleplay done by Ishuk-Raata and Intaki Liberation Front, who have done things similar in the Intaki system, and set significant precedent. The only debatable aspect is precisely how much economic activity might be stimulated.

Show me one non-capsuleer that I can talk to that has benefited. Show me economic figures of the NPC economy that have changed. Show me evidence of any stimulation. I don't think there is any. The only evidence is that you stimulated capsuleer economy. Maybe evidence of buying NPC goods would be the nearest equivalent of stimulating NPC economy.

The argument does not invalidate roleplay at all, any roleplay affecting non-existent entities need GM's fiat. You are only affecting economy NPC economy if we agree that you are. When you make such an effort, you are giving other RPers a chance to validate your RP instead.

Merdaneth couldn't produce proof of slaves working on his farms if he was asked to produce it, because, let's face it, there are no in-game representations of slaves working on farms. Yet, when I suggest I am doing so, and other people treat me as if I'm speaking truth, they are validating my position. That is why it is a lot more difficult to RP conflicts when it comes to stuff not existent in-game.

At this point there is no mechanism in-game to free slaves, which essentially means one cannot prove one has freed slaves. One cannot prove one has enslaved people to. We play a careful pretend game with each other where we make claims we hope that other people find believable and thus will validate. But it is difficult to move opposing interests forward this way.

[Merdaneth]

I think we can see the beginnings of another argument in the same vein, here: "no roleplay-by-doing is realizeable in this setting, and thus, roleplay-by-doing and roleplay-by-saying are equivalent and can be substituted for one another"

I believe this statement is patently false. We exist and do things in the in-character universe on a second by second basis, providing us with hard fact and evidence to support our character development. The danger of roleplaying purely by saying things, as exists on the IGS for the vast majority of cases, is that you remove many of the barriers stopping metagaming and manipulating character development, namely, by removing observable fact from the equation and reducing it to a 'on-your-honor' system.

It is a verifiable fact in-game that the slaves I bought 5 years ago, and locked into a small secure container in a hangar on some station are still there 5 years later. They didn't die (of malnutrition, asphixiation, disease etc.), they didn't reproduce, they didn't require any isk from me to spend upon them. In fact, if I put them on market today they'll likely bring a comparable price with 5 years ago. It is a verifiable fact that non of my in-game slaves ever die, ever escape or ever reproduce. Everybody knows that, but nobody plays it like that, because it would be utterly boring to do so, and wouldn't match what is established in EVE fiction.....

The examples you give are about capsuleer interaction. Capsuleers you can affect, and most of the EVE game is geared towards capsuleer interaction. You can aid, betray, befriend or defeat capsuleers. However, most of EVE fiction and background concerns itself with non-capsuleers, people you cannot affect. You might pretend all you want that the character Julianus Soter had a youth and a family, but you have no proof of it. You cannot show my photographs of your old school classes, your old home and there is no record of your sports achievement. You need to rely on the community's acceptance to establish such things. 

The best way to achieve changes in the NPC world is to convince fellow capsuleers and people from CCP that there are such changes going on. In such a case, words are better than action. I might haul millions of slaves back to the Republic for years, but if I'm not making it public, no one's gonna know and it won't affect the storyline one bit.

If everybody in the RP community starts agreeing and saying that Soter spent the majority of his youth in prison, that will be as good as fact, since you cannot disprove it in any way.

In regards to stagnation: when it dawns on you it is next to impossible to really affect changes in the things you like to affect, than a lot of people will stop putting energy into it. That is the attraction of say, nullsec RP, since you can affect much more. I just don't like the shoot-unmoving-millions-of-hp-structures unopposed kind of gameplay. I prefer to play with more interactive and challenging elements. It is also the attraction (for me) of tabletop RP, because you it is much, much easier to affect NPCs.

[Merdaneth]

Why? They can't be trusted. So many toons in this game do so many really dumb things, but most of that can be forgiven as simple human nature. People can fuck up, over again, and while one expects them to learn from it most issues are neglectable. Far as I and my toon is concerned, loyalty is not.

This is quite common in EVE, especially in the RP community, because many people are friends OOC while opposed IC. Most characters I see leaving RP corps do so for OOC reasons and retrofit a RP reason to it (if anything, some just don't give any IC reason).

I can understand it, but Merdaneth doesn't like it, and I emphasize such loyalty issues by adressing people with things like 'traitor'. I find it rarely fails to make an impact to consistently do so, and even educates people who didn't realize such a background.

People will be people, and OOC consideration tend to weigh a lot heavier than IC considerations.

[Julianus Soter]

Wait, I thought it was impossible to put NPC's in canisters? I know you can do it to ones in space or in your cargohold.

Regardless, NPC's living 'forever' is also largely an illegitimate excuse to discredit actions in space. I view the human commodities more in terms of contracts or securities with shares of certain slave stocks in that station, and once you leave that station, they're transported with you if you place the 'item' in your cargohold.

Contriving an argument to nitpick NPC item game mechanics and somehow thereby dismantle the view that actions in space are roleplaying actions is extraordinarily tenuous.

[Merdaneth]

Wait, I thought it was impossible to put NPC's in canisters? I know you can do it to ones in space or in your cargohold.

Regardless, NPC's living 'forever' is also largely an illegitimate excuse to discredit actions in space. I view the human commodities more in terms of contracts or securities with shares of certain slave stocks in that station, and once you leave that station, they're transported with you if you place the 'item' in your cargohold.

Contriving an argument to nitpick NPC item game mechanics and somehow thereby dismantle the view that actions in space are roleplaying actions is extraordinarily tenuous.

Soter, try to respond to the point I am making, and not to one example. I mean, I am willing to make a hundred more examples if you really need them, but I think you probably got my point. Reread my argument disregarding the example if necessary.

Also, I ask you to please not use the words 'contriving' and 'nitpick' if you want to discuss this openly. I don't think it is productive to the tone of the debate. I'm not trying to discredit any actions, again, please try to understand the point I'm making.

[Julianus Soter]

Unfortunately, Merdaneth, you didn't reply to my points, either. You merely constructed something you claimed to be a counterexample and deployed it in the debate.

I speak largely from experience about how there are still roleplay opportunities available from doing things in space, specifically, the Arek'Jaalan project. The Trinity hypothesis, and the General Trinity hypothesis, are both 'word' roleplay items that have been supported by in-game roleplay action, interacting with parts of the storyline. And now we're waiting so see what the result is, although we might move forward on our own.

The best way to achieve changes in the NPC world is to convince fellow capsuleers and people from CCP that there are such changes going on. In such a case, words are better than action. I might haul millions of slaves back to the Republic for years, but if I'm not making it public, no one's gonna know and it won't affect the storyline one bit.

Actually, no, because nobody's going to believe you, if there are only words, and no action. I don't recall a single instance in the past 4 years where this has worked outside of the small roleplaying clique it caters to; for example, I believe it was the Cyrene Initiative that constructed out of whole cloth a "Federation Intelligence Office Report" that they used as a Casus Belli regarding APEX Conglomerate activities in the Placid region, starting the second CYI/APEX war.

Nobody believed it, of course, because it was so obviously contrived and dumb. The result was that the war started, and CYI disintegrated during the course of it, partly dragging down Acheron Federation in the process, as we rushed to their support during the start of the war, but couldn't maintain any sort of wartime activity.

Don't get me wrong, Merdaneth, I don't mean that we should ducttape our mouths shut and not say anything. I merely employ the same realities of life to the Eve Universe, namely, that people are only going to believe and trust you if you put your money where your mouth is.

[Merdaneth]

Soter,

I'll try to sketch the discussion from my point of view:

- Did everything die?
- It is indeed kinda quiet on the RP front
- CCP not moving storylines forward is contributing to the quiet, its difficult to RP that way
- Me: The EVE storyline depends in a major part on NPCs
- Me: Those NPCs, for the most part, don't exist in game or don't respond to any player interaction
- Me: That is a major reason why it is difficult to move NPC-related RP stuff forward, there is often no option you can do but talk
- You: But you can affect NPCs. Example: Intaki economic development
- Me: No, you can pretend to affect NPCs. There are no NPCs in game. There is no NPC economy to be measured. No amount of capsuleer effort will have an effect on the NPCs simply because they aren't there.
- Me: Because they aren't there, it is also impossible to prove or disprove interaction with the NPC world.
- Me: So, doing something and claiming you affected NPCs or claiming you have done something to affect NPCs are both equally unprovable.
- You: That would invalidate all those RP actions done to influence the NPC world!
- Me: No, I don't know why it should.
- You: You are telling me that role-playing by saying and role-playing by doing are the same!
- Me: No, I'm not. I'm saying that there the effect on the NPCs is pretend-only if your RP tries to interact with the non-existent and non-interactable NPC world. Capsuleer interaction certainly don't suffer from this as you are now trying to suggest.
- You: But you are saying than in-space actions are irrelevant! Example: capsuleer wars. Put your money where your mouth is!
- Me: Hmmm... I am starting to think we took a different turn somewhere...

I'm not discussing capsuleer RP. Capsuleer interaction is still there and offers as many possibilities as before. I am talking about RP involving the EVE background story. A background story which heavily features things that for all intents and purposes do not exist or are non-interactable in game. It is difficult to build your RP around stuff that never responds to what you do. You might as well talk to a plastic doll and pretending it's your girlfriend. At some point it gets boring: the relationship never moves forward.

The Arak'Jaalan is a typical example of this. If I had started this project myself, it would be very difficult to move it forward, since I cannot produce Arek'Jaalan the NPC. I would not be able to provide convincing proof of his defection. I would probably be laughed at by many as someone who tries to RP just by saying stuff without having anything to back-up in space. "Arek'Jaalan defected and contacted you, sure, prove it bud..." That makes it difficult to move such a project forward without CCP actually stepping in and providing the NPC and providing more material from the NPC world to interact with. You have to convince your fellow players to accept your pretend NPC interaction. And when some fellow capsuleers and players have opposing agenda's and views of EVE, the "prove it" card is often pulled.

[Invelious]

entire thread covered.

I'm all caught up now, thanks bro 

[Bastian Valoron]

What difference does it really make if Merdaneth's rebuilding efforts don't have an effect on anything? His intention is to help, and we can react to that in character. The same thing with all the player news and claims: they're obviously fabricated but for role-playing purposes one can also consider whether the message is aligned or misaligned with your character's goals (or whether your character is gullible enough to buy the claim without any consideration) and not always use the "it's a lie" card.

From this perspective the main difference between roleplaying-by-doing and roleplaying-by-saying is whether we can go and destroy Merdaneth's rebuilding efforts in space, or do we have to convince him first that it would be an awesome plot twist.

[Casiella]

Wow, Merdaneth, I just came back after an absence and wish I had those sorts of catch-up posts everywhere!

[Graelyn]

They are a fine utility....

[Myyona]

The Arak'Jaalan is a typical example of this. If I had started this project myself, it would be very difficult to move it forward, since I cannot produce Arek'Jaalan the NPC. I would not be able to provide convincing proof of his defection. I would probably be laughed at by many as someone who tries to RP just by saying stuff without having anything to back-up in space. "Arek'Jaalan defected and contacted you, sure, prove it bud..." That makes it difficult to move such a project forward without CCP actually stepping in and providing the NPC and providing more material from the NPC world to interact with. You have to convince your fellow players to accept your pretend NPC interaction. And when some fellow capsuleers and players have opposing agenda's and views of EVE, the "prove it" card is often pulled.

Hilen Tukos is the name of the doctor that defected; he named his project/reconfigured freighter Arek'Jaalan.

Anyhow, AJ is great when you realize it is not about shaping the EVE background story but digging into it. Sure you cannot directly effect the EVE background story but you can learn from it and enhance your understanding of the World of EVE. Getting all the pieces of Prime Fiction into place is what increase my feeling of immersion and keeps me interested in continuing my subscription.

I never had much interest in writing my own EVE fiction because I want to know about EVE the way CCP presents it, not how I would like it to be. I hope the message is clear here; I do not increase my feeling of immersion by making up my own stories; I do it by digging more and more into the story that already exists.

[Merdaneth]

I never had much interest in writing my own EVE fiction because I want to know about EVE the way CCP presents it, not how I would like it to be. I hope the message is clear here; I do not increase my feeling of immersion by making up my own stories; I do it by digging more and more into the story that already exists.

That's great. I'm more of a builder myself. Making my own stories gives me more pleasure than immersing myself in other one's stories. But types can work excellently side by side. I very much like the illusion that I can affect a fantasy world, and EVE speaks to me as a world where one can affect quite a lot in comparison to other MMORPG's.

[Merdaneth]

Wow, Merdaneth, I just came back after an absence and wish I had those sorts of catch-up posts everywhere!

Thanks. But in all honesty to Soter, it is based on my (biased) point of view, thus it is possible I may have misrepresented some things.

[Julianus Soter]

Our capacity to impact the backstory remains the same as ever, I believe. The Live events allow for a significant particiaption of players with ongoing storyline arcs, vis-a-vis actor interactions and completion of various objectives, making a lasting, prime fiction, impact.

The faction war arcs are largely tied up, with the Blind Auction being undone by the liberation of Placid/Verge/Essence, which I'm proud Moira took a part of back in the day. There wasn't much more going on in the Amarr/Minmatar front, however, occupying a star system on behalf of a faction is still most certainly a significant impact on the backstory of the game.

I think it is rather presumptuous for us to believe our capsuleers capable of doing, or undoing, thousands of years of human history just over the course of a few days of typing things in the IGS. That is where the lack of perspective lies, I believe. Even with the contiuous efforts of years of certain RP alliances, there is still a long way to go scratch the surface of the storyline in 'real time', meaning, human epochal history.

The impact of any one person, over such period of time, can be said to be vanishingly small. However, things like faction war, live events, and others, do bring to mind that accomplishments of skill, teamwork, and perseverance will be rewarded by CCP. Acts of a lone wolf attempting to hog the headlines, probably won't.