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[lallara zhuul]

Even in the State, before the megacorporations came into power, some part of the population had the economic and political power.

For the Feds it most likely the nobility of the old monarchy.

Who was it for the State, those who manipulated the situation the best for their own interest, when the Feds came, or someone who was constantly keeping the reins of power in its hands since day one.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Would there be a reason to think that those who held power before the Megacorporations came into power didn't reserve front row seats to the new power bloc themselves?

What's to say who you're talking about, and who I'm talking about... aren't the same people? Not LITERALLY the same people, of course.. but you get the idea.

[lallara zhuul]

The thing is...

The governments in all of the other empires are just obfuscation, ways of appeasing the masses, while the real decisions on how the empires are run are made elsewhere.

The religion, therefore the whole concept of the Holy Spiritual Empire of the Amarrians is a way of appeasing the population.
The Tribes and the republic government is the same.
The Freedom of the individual in the Federation is completely shackled by the necessities of the economy.

Why would it be different in the State?

If a similar view would be built on the State from the opposite end by creating causality and how things are in the other empires.
First thing you would do is to take the basic ideas that the empire is motivated with and say that they are false.

For the State that would mean that the meritocracy is an illusion.
The whole economic system and governmental system would be a lie.

What would it leave to run the whole place?

Feds have the old nobility from the monarchy.
Amarrians have the Holders.
Minnies have their Elders.

They all are outside of the culture of their own empires.

Predeterminism of a life of a noble in a society that laurels individual freedom.
Holders are purely secular.
Elders override every individualistic instinct that the Minnies have.

Did that make it clearer or just a bit more muddled?

[Matariki Rain]

More muddled.

What's this about Matari having individualist instincts?

Also, in what sense do you think the Elders -- whoever they are -- run things-that-matter in people's daily lives?

[Mithfindel]

Pissing off the Empire might have an effect on the lives of regular Minmatar. Or then the entire purpose of the Minmatar Republic might be to be a thorn on the side of the Amarr Empire, keeping them from becoming too powerful. If any of the four main empires would get too dominant and able to start to ignore other empires military-wise, they might have time for further scientific advances. Which might not be optimal for all. What did Sansha Kuvakei find out? Were the True Slaves the real reason the other empires suddenly forgot their differences and attacked his Nation?

As for the Federation, it is quite romantic to think the nobles held power in the first place. If Gallente nobles are anything like our nobles, they were in debt (fiscally) to the movers and shakers of the financial world.

Who controls the shareholders of the State? Do they also have influence on the Guristas? The megacorps compete with each other, and while they superficially have made somewhat permanent alliances (factions, blocks), Oceania still has always been at war with Eurasia. (For the reference, I understand it is hinted that in Orwell's 1984 there may be a World Government that simply keeps its citizens under control by making war with itself.) Of course, that kind of doesn't fit the State, but a secret (not-so-Mercantile) club of important shareholders and other powerful people would fit the setting very well.

[Vieve]

As for the Federation, it is quite romantic to think the nobles held power in the first place. If Gallente nobles are anything like our nobles, they were in debt (fiscally) to the movers and shakers of the financial world.

I've generally thought of them as being a mix of entitled-but-powerless and entitled-because-the-royal-authorities-needed-their-money-or-military-support (e.g. the Medicis). I do imagine that noble titles might have gone out of fashion when the assorted Gallentean monarchies converted/evolved/devolved/revolved into democracies.

[lallara zhuul]

What's this about Matari having individualist instincts?

Since when I was part of the Amarr-Minmatar conflict the view that Minmatars are noble savages seemed to be the consensus.
Ginger was very convinced about this, we used to butt our heads about it in chatsubo back in the golden days when the people from the neuromancer forums moved there and actually talked about things.

The thing about the Elders is that PF pretty much states that if an Elder would give a gun to any Minmatar person and tell him/her to kill him/herself first the Minnie would put the gun in his/her mouth and pull the trigger, if the gun would not be loaded another way of committing suicide would be found.

Hence the Elders being completely in conflict with the mentality and the practice of the Republic, and its people.

[Louella Dougans]

I think in teh DUST chronicle, one of the minmatar characters sort of laughs at the idea of the Elders.

something like "I don't care about the "Elders" and their prophecies"

which could mean that at least some Minmatar aren't so indoctrinated that they are nothing more than pawns of the Elders.

[Ulphus]

Since when I was part of the Amarr-Minmatar conflict the view that Minmatars are noble savages seemed to be the consensus.
Ginger was very convinced about this, we used to butt our heads about it in chatsubo back in the golden days when the people from the neuromancer forums moved there and actually talked about things.

"Noble savage" seems to me to be one of those concepts that only really exists in the heads of people who aren't the "noble savages" in question. It's sort of the equivalent of "They have their good points, but they're still savages, so we can ignore their preferences and desires in order to educate them - it's for their own good really". Hardly an objective truth.

I don't think the Matari are "noble" or "savages". I think there are good people and bad people who are Matari; altruists and scumbags; victims and criminals;poor people and rich people; top end scientists and the uneducated. Much like any other large enough group of people.

The thing about the Elders is that PF pretty much states that if an Elder would give a gun to any Minmatar person and tell him/her to kill him/herself first the Minnie would put the gun in his/her mouth and pull the trigger, if the gun would not be loaded another way of committing suicide would be found.

Hence the Elders being completely in conflict with the mentality and the practice of the Republic, and its people.

Could you provide some hints about where to look in the PF for that bit about the Elders being able to order the suicide of any given Minmatar?

[Matariki Rain]

Pissing off the Empire might have an effect on the lives of regular Minmatar.

Yeah, but any random group that can be spun as vaguely related could have the same impact. It doesn't mean the Matar People's Freedom Party is running things.

Or then the entire purpose of the Minmatar Republic might be to be a thorn on the side of the Amarr Empire, keeping them from becoming too powerful.

There are plenty of entities which might have vested interests in maintaining hostilities.

[lallara zhuul]

Ulphus: I think I got the impression of that from Theodicy.

[Louella Dougans]

The Elders have some kind of plan (incidentally this plan is manipulate/directed by the enhedunces), and they require the bloodlines of all the tribes.

They have those bloodlines now, and so ran off into weirdspace, leaving the Republic minmatar (who arent as cravenly subservient to the Elder whatnots) to act as a sponge, paying in blood to stop any interference in the Elder/Enhedunnies Grand Plan.

The minmatar have traded Amarrian masters, for being tools of the Elder/Endhuenni.

Jack swapping the cow for the magic beans, it is not.

[Ulphus]

Ulphus: I think I got the impression of that from Theodicy.

I only read the first 3 or 4 pages of Theodicy before I couldn't read any more. The impression I got was that there was some over-riding control mechanism for the slave in the first couple of pages, but it wasn't clear to me whether the author was implying that this individual slave had been implanted, or that all slaves, or all Matari.

* Ulphus shrugs

Since I saw only the one slave under control, I assumed it was just a few slaves, but it was one of the reasons I didn't read any further.

This does rather remind me of what I dislike about Eve...

[Helen Ohmiras]

Ulphus: I think I got the impression of that from Theodicy.

I only read the first 3 or 4 pages of Theodicy before I couldn't read any more. The impression I got was that there was some over-riding control mechanism for the slave in the first couple of pages, but it wasn't clear to me whether the author was implying that this individual slave had been implanted, or that all slaves, or all Matari.

* Ulphus shrugs

Since I saw only the one slave under control, I assumed it was just a few slaves, but it was one of the reasons I didn't read any further.

This does rather remind me of what I dislike about Eve...

The Empyrean Age kind of clarifies things.  Not all Minmatar are implanted.  Specific operatives of the Elders are. Keitan Yun wasn't implanted, for instance, but his bodyguard Ameline was.

On whether there are plans or not, they would have to be Xanatos Roulettes of "EPIC!" magnitude, especially considering that the Empires all changed over a matter of hours during the course of TEA, and in the face of the slew of Xanatos Roulette Pileups put forth in that novel alone.

[Hamish Grayson]

There was a Plan.  Then in 2005 the people with the plan left.  They took it with them.