Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[lallara zhuul]

Part of the mindset of every conspiracy theorist/nut is that there is the shadow masters pulling strings that make the world go around with a certain malevolent intent and a plan.

In real life this is pretty much untrue, if you a rudimentary understanding on how evolution works then you can see that pretty much everything that the rules of causality on societal level pretty much follow the same rules as on a personal level. Trained response to a given stimulus time and again, when something happens that cannot be explained through the linear rules that the mentality of status quo is run with there is a state of panic. Pretty much the whole world is in a constant state of of shock because everything that happens seems to surprise every one, constantly. Which would lead to the logical conclusion that there is no plan, there are no conspiracies or shadow masters.
While all of the above should be taken with a grain of salt, in the world of New Eden such is not the case.

There is the Elders, Holders, Reborn, Enheduanni (yes, I said it), Jovians, Master Kuvakei, Broker and the average lifespan of close to two centuries for a regular person (the general in the Templar One excerpt was 160 years old.)
There are four empires that are pretty much molded to the same blueprint several thousands of years later as they were founded upon.
Each and every one of those empires have their own internal thought police, built in mechanism to get rid of malcontents in a way that is beneficial to the empire itself.

So...
What I have been wondering lately about is that these facts kind of paint a picture that each and every empire have their own plan, unstoppable intent that spans centuries upon centuries where individuals are meaningless, internal need to reach a goal that was determined oh so many years ago in the foundation of each and every empire.

What is the goal?
What is the plan on how to get there?

Hmmmh, better eat brekkies before I start waxing poetic.

[Graelyn]

The Jove want enough of us to get high enough skillpoint totals that we can actually contain their minds, so they can download into us enmasse, leave their broken brains/bodies behind, and save their race...in time to stop the 'other Jove' from re-opening the EVE-Gate.

Just a hunch. 

As for that other stuff, who knows?

[lallara zhuul]

Well, for the Empire its pretty simple.

It was 'created to cultivate the spirit of Man.'

Whatever that means.

There are a few things about the Amarrians that eliminate some possibilities.

Transhumanism through technology is not one of them, Amarrians have had the technology for prolonged lifespans through cloning for at least two thousand years and from cybernetic implantation since the days of the Avetat and Ametat. It's not any kind of stretch that the cybernetic implantation could have been used to modify the physical and the mental capabilities of the Amarrians during that time.

They have chosen not to, why, because it's not part of the plan.

When talking about transhumanism people always talk about the singularity as well, when super intelligences roam the land.

Perhaps the Amarrian plan is not to have a singularity out of intelligence, but of something else.

They are realists in the sense that there can not be a singular entity without its parts sharing most of the important characteristics, hence the Reclaiming, cultural slavery and turning all of humanity into this cultural entity where everyone shares similar ways of thinking because of the basic concepts that the religion provides.

/shrug

[Graelyn]

Individuals have long range plans like that.

Huge Empires do not, unless there is a lone controlling group who can plan multi-generationally. Even in Amarr, there are competing groups who undo each other's machinations.

The goal of each of the Empires is to survive. All that other stuff you listed are the goals of only certain people within them.

[Malcolm Khross]

I am going to attempt to make myself sound intelligent and respond to this...

The way I see it, each "empire" has separate motivations because of a very different perspective on existence and subsequent purpose. For instance:

The Amarr are driven by their religion, so much so that they have formed a theocracy. (Which is actually an aristocracy ruled by an parliamentary monarchical theocracy.) Their religion teaches them to be introspective, constantly examining themselves for righteousness and then tasks them with the purpose of spreading their religion to every planet in the heavens. Several doctrines in their religion dictate what is acceptable and what isn't, hence the disdain for capsuleers (and clones in general), their viewpoint on the Matari (and subsequently every heathen) and the way they interact (or don't) with others. The greater plan for the Amarr is for all people to be under their rule, under their god until their god brings all people into his presence.

The Matari are driven primarily by two things: an intimate spiritual connection to the worlds and lives around them (Matari spirituality) and freedom of tribal identity (various cultures all beheld to the same spirits but admonishing different ones and different aspects of them). Primarily, the Matari have a "spirituality" belief, in that they understand there to be several spirits that are constantly guiding creation toward its ultimate resolution. (Some would call the spirits "gods" but to Matari see them far more intimately than that, something much more personal.) They believe that these spirits dictate destiny and purpose to each person, manifested in the Voluval and that each person's task in life is to fulfill their destiny in order to join with the spirits upon death. The ultimate goal of the Matari would be a fulfilled life leading to a peaceful death accomplished by service to family, clan and tribe in tune with their guiding spirits.

The Gallente are primarily driven by liberty and individual freedoms. As such, they tend to have no overpowering theological or religious motivation and their political position tends to be driven by whatever the most popular and influential viewpoint is at the time. Because of this, they tend to grown on all forms of oppressive expansion or enforced conformity and believe that everyone should be free to live and die as they choose. The ultimate goal of the Gallente would be absolute freedom for everyone to live their life as they see fit, subject to whatever god, spirit or belief (or lack thereof) that they choose to be and that all of humanity be humane to one another unto that end.

The Caldari are driven by a belief that their ancestors are watching over them, that family name and honor are of the utmost importance and the primary duty to each individual. As such, each person must strive to dedicate their all toward their family and subsequently humanity through their talents and merits. Those who do so will be revered, respected and elevated in society. The ultimate goal of the Caldari would be that each human would be judged according to their merit, giving all toward the advancement and betterment of humanity as a whole and thus bringing honor and respect to themselves and their family.

Ultimately, you have religious motivations (Amarr/Matari) and humanist motivations (Gallente/Caldari) with each empire's end goals simply being what they view as the ultimate existence for themselves and humanity as a whole.

At least, that's my very limited understanding from my very limited time in EVE.

[Desiderya]

The ultimate goal of the Caldari would be that each human would be judged according to their merit, giving all toward the advancement and betterment of humanity as a whole and thus bringing honor and respect to themselves and their family.

"Each human" should be "each caldari", and not bound by blood, as well as this being less of a goal and more of an expectancy. The goal for the caldari people and therefore the State would be more being the strongest military and economic might in New Eden to ensure the safety and independance of their culture. It is not about going out there to convert others.

[Akrasjel Lanate]

... The greater plan for the Amarr is for all people to be under their rule, under their god until their god brings all people into his presence.

... The ultimate goal of the Matari would be a fulfilled life leading to a peaceful death accomplished by service to family, clan and tribe in tune with their guiding spirits.

... The ultimate goal of the Gallente would be absolute freedom for everyone to live their life as they see fit, subject to whatever god, spirit or belief (or lack thereof) that they choose to be and that all of humanity be humane to one another unto that end.

... The ultimate goal of the Caldari would be that each human would be judged according to their merit, giving all toward the advancement and betterment of humanity as a whole and thus bringing honor and respect to themselves and their family.

It's just a mask. It's all about power, wealth and domination.

[Kaleigh Doyle]

There's plenty of evidence from the bits of history we DO have that the cultures of New Eden have evolved and changed over time, so I would disagree with the notion they are static entities with singular goals.

[Malcolm Khross]

Enjoying the corrections/reflections on it. I had a feeling my rather long wall of text would encourage response. It's a learning experience for me, a chance to see what everyone else thinks (most of you have been here longer than me).

[Ava Starfire]

Your interpretations are the same, or virtually so, as mine, Malcom. I dont think any of the empires set out to be "good" or "evil" in any way, just a different set of cultural ideals that most within those nations hold as proper, good, and right.

I cannot say anything about the Gallente/Caldari, but fwiw, the Amarr/Minmatar seem, to me, to be spot on. The Amarr are not innately "evil" nor the Minmatar "good". Sure, some in power on both sides will be tyrants, some will rise to the top as saints, but in the end, most are just people, trying to get through life as well as they can, defined by the culture they are immersed in.

[Ulphus]

The greater plan for the Amarr is for all people to be under their rule, under their god until their god brings all people into his presence.

The ultimate goal of the Matari would be a fulfilled life leading to a peaceful death accomplished by service to family, clan and tribe in tune with their guiding spirits.

The ultimate goal of the Gallente would be absolute freedom for everyone to live their life as they see fit, subject to whatever god, spirit or belief (or lack thereof) that they choose to be and that all of humanity be humane to one another unto that end.

The ultimate goal of the Caldari would be that each human would be judged according to their merit, giving all toward the advancement and betterment of humanity as a whole and thus bringing honor and respect to themselves and their family.

Personally, I think that given the populations of the various polities, that there would be more difference between people in the same polity than there would be between them - that is to say that I think it is a mistake to characterise all, or perhaps even a majority of, Matari as having "an intimate spiritual connection to the worlds and lives around them" as much as it would be to say that "all Amarrians are fanatical religious zealots".

I think there will be Matari who are religious zealots, and probably Amarrians who think they have a spiritual connection to the worlds and lives around them, Gallente who believe in judging people on their merits, and Caldari who think there is more to life than profit.

Which is why every time someone says "The Matari/Amarrians/Caldari/Gallente are like this..." instead of "Some of x are like ..." or possibly even "Many x are like ..." it triggers all sorts of warning bells in my stereotype detector machine, and I find the argument unpersuasive.

[Malcolm Khross]

That's fair Ulphus.

I was sort of trying to analyze the races as a greater whole, not really a "most are this way" kind of thing, but I can see where it comes off that way.

[Mithfindel]

This thread needs more tinfoil.

Assume the Sefrim were real. Who were they, are they still pulling threads, what they really want? What if the Sani Sabik run the Empire?

Gallente underworld. Come on, do you really believe that the President or the fools in the Senate, the seventeen gods forbid, control the Federation?

Caldari. Yeah. Shareholders. The Shadow Megacorporations. Who really controls Caldari? Are there extra-corporate players? Other people like the Broker, only more Mary Sue?

Minmatar. Yeah, they only want to be free. Elders and the Sanmatar really are not Endehuanni puppets. I think all of our knowledge of the E-folks come from Jove, so I say that the Jove just made up the "Dark Jove" to fuck with the poor non-transhumanists.

Capsuleers. Jove were just being very, very kind to share military technology that isn't really understood even almost two hundred years later by the other empires. Now what is the actual purpose of the Jove "capsuleer experiment"? Should we feel a bit like a Charisoco?

[lallara zhuul]

That is pretty much what I was aiming for.

What has been constant in the empires since their conception?

Who holds the real power?

It is pretty clear that the Holder class in the Empire runs things and because of their long lifespan they can make plans that are from a completely different scale than of those that live only for a single century.

For the Republic the leadership that the regular Matari sees is the leadership of the Tribe, but behind them are the Elders.

In the Federation it is pretty clear that the ones that created the old economic backbone are the ones that are still calling the shots, its just that the population think that they have the freedom brought to them by democracy.

For the State... I have no idea...

[Katrina Oniseki]

For the State... I have no idea...

I would assume that the major shareholders, CEOs, and directors of the Big Eight hold the real power in the State. Heth's control over the State is helped by his political chokehold and the Caldari Providence Directorate (Provists), but it is still based on his legal control over several major corporations. It is only because he managed to maneuver into this position of corporate authority that he's able to exert his plans... otherwise, he'd just be ignored by the rest of the CEOs and their respective corporations.