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[Matariki Rain]

Splitting a thread from the discussion of Matari language.

Mithfindel, actually, thinking about it, I should phrase it as "one of the prime Amarrian languages -- possibly a liturgical one -- appears either to have been Latin-based or to have shared some vocabulary with Latin". That language doesn't appear to have been the one used to name Amarrian star systems.

I'm starting a new thread here to ask for some explanation of matters Amarrian for a newcomer to such things. My impressions are a bit conflicting: that the oldest of the Amarrian scriptures are now either unreadable or hard to read because of language change, but that the language of scripture is a unifying cultural force alongside the teachings of scripture. (And perhaps that scripture can't truly be translated?)

The Amarrian Scriptures are not a single book, but rather the name given to the collective holy texts of Amarr. They are not limited to just religious dogma; they describe everything from out-of-date codes of behavior to early technological breakthroughs. The collective writings have been maintained and updated throughout the centuries by Imperial Theologians and include texts that hearken back to the very origins of Amarr society, written in a tongue so ancient as to be unreadable by today's Amarrians. The Scriptures are the very foundation stone of Amarrian Society, defining the daily lives of Amarrians the Empire across.

Curiously and sleepily yours,
  Mata

[lallara zhuul]

I would think that the 'today's Amarrians' refers to your regular baseliner Amarrians that have had no education in ancient languages.

Of course depending on the mode of saving the information, some of it may have degraded with time and is completely unreadable at the moment.

But as the quote says, they are being maintained and updated all the time so such degradation should not occur.

Balkanization of information on the other hand

[Lyn Farel]

Well, unreadable for the standard amarrian. For what reason ? I don't know, could be an old version of the current language that has changed enough or something totally different, or just a decay as Lallara said. But one thing can be more or less assumed : it is probably perfectly understandable by linguists. After all, we are able IRL to read almost all the old languages we came into.

[Kazzzi]

Most modern Egyptians can't read hieroglyphs. Indeed it's only by chance that the rosetta stone was found that anyone can.

[Yoshito Sanders]

Most modern Christians can't read Koine Greek either. Doesn't mean there aren't people around who can translate it, though.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

How many Christians can read the bible in Hebrew? Actually, the bible is composed of passages in Hebrew, Aramaic, Koine Greek... and then there are the Apocryphal books, which are found in Slavonic, Syriac, Coptic... and some other languages. Even theologians rarely read all of these.

I there's more information on the nature of the Scriptures contained in the chronicles and stuff about the Tetrimon.

Anyway, I guess it's less like with the Qur'an which established Arabic as the lingua franca as the muslim world, but more like the Christian Bible which didn't contribute something like that though it still managed and manages to bind Christians of all denominations together.

Also, I'd doubt that the Amarr have something like the protestant 'sola scriptura', as their Scriptural texts alone are simply too voluminous for your usual Amarr to handle. Thus the need for professional clerics (e.g. the Theology Council).

So, I think, while the Scriptures have their part as a unifying force, it's more the Amarrian religion as a whole that achieves that. And - nowadays - the Emperor reserves the privilege of interpretation to himself - through the TC (as opposed to the Council of Apostles).

[Matariki Rain]

I wonder about likening Amarrian scripture to a library-sized Talmud, full of information and discussion, debate and clarification about how to structure a society and how to live. For me it captures a bit of the sense of a living, growing, body of knowledge and culture.

[Horatius Caul]

I wonder about likening Amarrian scripture to a library-sized Talmud, full of information and discussion, debate and clarification about how to structure a society and how to live. For me it captures a bit of the sense of a living, growing, body of knowledge and culture.

Well, it did take several Bestowers to move the Theology Council libraries.

I think Gaven puts it well when he explores what the Scriptures would be:

The scriptures as they exist now would in real life terms be less like the bible and more like:

The Jewish scriptures. All of the Jewish writings.
The New Testament. Half of the Apocryphal texts.
All of the Patristics. All of the classical technological and medical treatises. Most of the modern ones.
All of the Saint's Lives. Most of the Heroic epics.
All of the edicts of the popes. Roman Law. Canon Law.
All of the modern era theologians who are not heretical.
All of the counters to the modern era theologians who are heretical.
The catechisms.
Add in a bunch of odds and ends. Multiply volume produced by say 5. (much longer time with many more people involved for the development of Amarrian scripture.)

I also believe that the Theology and Apostle Councils would have constantly been uplifting stuff like scientific texts to Scriptural status.

[Seriphyn]

This makes the assumption that the "Catholic" reference refers to the Roman Catholic church. In the Anglican Declaration of Faith, one line is "We believe in one catholic and apostolic church", so could mean anything...catholic just means united. May also include some Islamic stuff given the Middle Eastern flavour to system naming.

Who knows...given that CCP removed the "French" reference from Gallente, they may retcon out all connections to Earth stuff.

[Horatius Caul]

This makes the assumption that the "Catholic" reference refers to the Roman Catholic church. In the Anglican Declaration of Faith, one line is "We believe in one catholic and apostolic church", so could mean anything...catholic just means united. May also include some Islamic stuff given the Middle Eastern flavour to system naming.

Who knows...given that CCP removed the "French" reference from Gallente, they may retcon out all connections to Earth stuff.

If you're replying to my post: Gaven wasn't saying that the Scriptures include any of the things he listed. He was saying that the sheer scope and volume of the Scriptures would be equivalent to that.

Like, 20000 years worth of:
The Jewish scriptures. All of the Jewish writings. Bits and bobs of ancient Judaic, Islamic and Christian writings.
The New Testament. Half of the Apocryphal texts. A compilation of texts declared canon by the Conformists on Soekheviti, plus fragmented historical documents, legendary accounts, speeches and edicts declared by Dano Gheinok.
All of the Patristics. All of the classical technological and medical treatises. Most of the modern ones. Texts by philosophers and theologians dating back to before Soekheviti. All scientific texts approved by the pre-reform clergy, some scientific texts declared divinely inspired by the post-reform clergy.
All of the Saint's Lives. Most of the Heroic epics. All texts related to approved saints and numerous ancient Athran tales - probably including Khanid, Udorian and Takmahl cultural artefacts as well.
All of the edicts of the popes. Roman Law. Canon Law. Everything written and spoken by Emperors and all Apostle Council declarations. Civil and Scriptural Laws - all of them, many contradictory.
All of the modern era theologians who are not heretical.
All of the counters to the modern era theologians who are heretical.
Catechisms, psalms, songs, rituals, etc.

[Kazzzi]

Afaik, according to Vaari, ancient Amarrian is actually Finnish. I might roll with that.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

Personally. For "ancient" Amarrian I prefer Amarrad (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1078.0).

Even though it's not canon. It looks and sounds interesting.

[Matariki Rain]

Just dropping the original quotation here for reference:

3805 AD  The Conformists, a group within the Unified Catholic Church, settles on Soekheviti.

The original is presented in all-caps, which could affect the meaning: "unified", "catholic" and "church" could each be descriptions (lower case) or parts of a proper name (upper case).

By the way, do we have any evidence of women as Amarrian clergy, or of Amarrian clergy being married (like Orthodox and Old Catholic priests) or much else at all about them? What do we know about them and their roles? (Presumably the Speakers of Truth are unusual and there are "normal" clergy?)

[Lyn Farel]

Uh, not very important but I was pretty sure that it is actually Christian priests that can't be married nor wear the beard, while orthodox priests can do both.

[Hamish Grayson]

In the world of Eve we have artificial intelligence translators, augmented reality implants and datasheets with FTL uplink to a galactic network.  With these technologies, translating a language you don't know would be done automatically and probably not something a space captain would even think twice about.