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[Kazzzi]

Mizhara, it sounds like they are trying to invoke rule 2 on you. I suggest calling shenanigans to nullify their claim.

But seriously, anytime somebody takes an RP stance on anything, they open themselves up to consequences.

By the same token, you open yourself up to consequences when you present consequences to others.

[Esna Pitoojee]

A little more explenation for those not up on the situation for those who didn't see it:

The player of the one of the two targets who objected, hereafter refered to "target player". Disclaimer: My statements about target player are entirely based on my interpretation of statements she made; I'm not presuming to speak for her.

Now, target player is someone who evidently does not like PvP situations. She is a player who evidently (based on comments she made) likes to mission in highsec. For this reason, she had not joined an immersive RP corp, nor had she sought IC conflict. Months ago, target player had done something in the formation of her character that she did not regard as something that would result in her getting mercs hired on her. Frankly, I wouldn't have regarded it as such either.

Tonight, this player was surprised to discover that this something which she had done in the past was going to get mercs on her. She became upset because she did not feel she could play EVE if she was being constantly hunted by mercs. Furthermore, she has made comments which suggest she is willing to accept IC consequences and allow her character to be hurt or killed; she just doesn't want this to happen in space, which she views as OOC unless agreed upon, while Mizh, based on what was said in her post, regards space as constantly IC.

Before we go any further, I'd like to state that I don't think either is "right" or "wrong". RP is a personal choice - some choose to join RP corps where corp chat is in character, others go to RP corps where IC is kept to other, player-made channels, and some go to corps with no other RPers. An example of the last is myself - I prefer not to go into "deeper" levels of immersion, such as regarding space as always IC, because at the end of the day I am a 0.0 PvPer and wish to do this largely unimpeded. My way is no more "right" than anyone else's.

In my opinion, the real question here is, "Is it more important to be respectful of other players' views on their levels of RP immersion, or to maintain my level of immersion at all costs because it is what I choose."

A lot of people have said "Well, that doesn't make EVE any more than MSN with fancy graphics" or some version of the above. Regardless of whether this is actually true, the question still remains: If someone wants to play MSN with fancy graphics, and I want more, should I force them to obey my level of immersion?

EDIT: While I was writing my walloftext, it seems Kazzzi got here first.

Mizhara, it sounds like they are trying to invoke rule 2 on you. I suggest calling shenanigans to nullify their claim.

But seriously, anytime somebody takes an RP stance on anything, they open themselves up to consequences.

By the same token, you open yourself up to consequences when you present consequences to others.

Said person isn't averse to IC consquences. She doesn't regard space as IC, though - so should she be forced to regard it as such?

[Lillith Blackheart]

Before we go any further, I'd like to state that I don't think either is "right" or "wrong"

I do, in a way.

Here's why:

Ishe has made comments which suggest she is willing to accept IC consequences and allow her character to be hurt or killed; she just doesn't want this to happen in space, which she views as OOC unless agreed upon

This is hypocritical of someone to expect.

A paraphrase of this is:

"You can not dictate my level of immersion, but I can dictate yours."

Said person isn't averse to IC consquences. She doesn't regard space as IC, though - so should she be forced to regard it as such?

Counter-question. Mizhara regards space as IC, should she be forced not to?

Why does one supercede the other?

Edit: Wow. I don't know how I accidentally quoted the wrong paragraph. My bad. Fixed that.

[Kazzzi]

Said person isn't averse to IC consquences. She doesn't regard space as IC, though - so should she be forced to regard it as such?

No, she doesn't have to acknowledge anyone elses RP, but she might still get kerploded for other peoples IC reasons whether she agrees or not. Lillith put it well^

But digging up character background to look for a reason to grief carebears? I'm sure there's many IC ways to handle the situation without combat or hysterical channel drama.

[Lillith Blackheart]

Before I go to bed, I feel I should put this into further detail.

Given the nature of EVE, one should expect at any point they might get wardecced. An RPer even more so. It is an unreasonable expectation that everyone is just going to let you do whatever the hell you want with no consequence in space.

There are only two ways that that can be a reasonable expectation, and in all actuality only one way is truly that way, the other only partially so.

1. Remain in the newbie corp. You can't be wardecced here, so you are free from IC consequences in space while in highsec. This is the only way you can have a truly reasonable expectation that any antics you choose will not come to haunt you in space.

2. Join an alliance -- for instance a nullsec alliance -- that one would be unlikely to bother trying to send mercs after (since mercs would want a pisston of cash to wardec IT or BoB in their hayday). This is mostly reasonable expectation that it won't come back to haunt you.

I think this statement:

In my opinion, the real question here is, "Is it more important to be respectful of other players' views on their levels of RP immersion, or to maintain my level of immersion at all costs because it is what I choose."

Bothers me at its very core, because it is directly implying that the person that opts to hire mercs (and in this situation Mizh hadn't even hired them yet, and actually warned the person beforehand) is disrespectful unless the person consents beforehand.

That is an unreasonable expectation in a game like EVE. You're in a nearly fully PvP game, you can't reasonably expect that your actions will never have "in space" consequences unless you agree with them. Hell you could get wardecced tomorrow by someone like STIMULUS that just felt like giving you a hard time just because you were there (<3 STIM by the way).

I suggest that that question is not the real question. The real question is "Is it reasonable to expect that you will not have in-space consequences to your IC actions unless you agree to them?"

I say the answer is an emphatic "No".

For every one individual that legitimately just doesn't want to mess up their gameplay, there's a dozen that will use it to hide being a douchebag.

[Mizhara]

Without counter-arguing much yet ( I'd like to hear more opinions on what is and isn't IC/OoC, and whether or not consequences in space for things that happen in RP channels is acceptable before I post more on the subject. ) I would like to clarify one thing:

Months ago, target player had done something in the formation of her character that she did not regard as something that would result in her getting mercs hired on her. Frankly, I wouldn't have regarded it as such either.

Tonight, this player was surprised to discover that this something which she had done in the past was going to get mercs on her.

Is not quite correct. This is the summary of several things done/said over a long period of time, said months in fact. The character(s) who are considering getting Mercs (not for a wardec even, just to hunt and gank two characters, appending a message to the kill, with quite generous bounties) are ideologically opposite to these two characters, and have repeatedly seen insult after insult (as they perceive it) and have finally come to the conclusion there needs to be consequence.

The consequence is rather light. One kill of each character, and thus the ships they're flying at the time, and preferably the pods as well.

I'd rather not get the erroneous reputation that I go rooting in player backgrounds just to find reasons to grief players. This is legitimate IC consternation for IC actions and words.

[Casiella]

Miz, you're doing it exactly the way I do it (and lots of other folks). Nothing wrong at all.

[dibblebill]

It also gets my alt pew pew \o/ Have to bait like hell to get a decent fight these days.

I'm with Mizhara. In space is in character. I expressed my view to the other player as well that in space is in character (How can it NOT be?), hence my alt losing her child when she was podded. I would have disagreed at one point, but I really don't see how it can be otherwise. Space combat is the ultimate extension of the RP.

[Esna Pitoojee]

The question still remains... what makes viewing IC space as any more "right" than viewing it as OOC?

[Saxon Hawke]

I'm not a big PVP person myself, but even I agree that in space is in character. You can't pick a fight in a bar and call it off when they catch you in the street. Well, I suppose you could try, but I don't expect it would work.

The ILF's anti-piracy policies have brought a lot of pirates down on us. We've gotten bloodied a few times, but we weather the storm and fight the good fight. The ILF's separatist policies got us War dec'd a time or two. We gave it as good as we got it and came out on the other side.

I try to stay in character with Saxon just about everywhere. I certainly don't drop character when I undock. What makes that viewpoint more "right" than the other? Well, in a game where the characters are spaceship pilots, being out of character while piloting your ship just doesn't seem very logical to me.

[Mizhara]

The question still remains... what makes viewing IC space as any more "right" than viewing it as OOC?

Well, like Saxon said. Spaceship game: Spaceships should be IC. But that's only a small part of it. This may come off as... self-righteous and a bit kindergarten, but it strikes me as true:

Viewing both space and RP channels as IC is the only 'fair' way of doing it.

Viewing it as OoC, and forcing that on other people's RP: The player gets to both have the cake, and eat it. Get to RP no matter what kind of character, and won't have to face consequences. No risk in calling anyone anything, no risk in committing unspeakable atrocities. In fact, the player gets to do whatever the hell they want, while they also get that nice cuddly carebear gameplay where they risk nothing. (If that's their cup of tea, in space). Enforcing this would limit and stop anyone viewing space as IC from getting to do half their roleplay (or 30%, 90%, whichever ratio the player has) because it's 'bad' to take RP into space according this particular philosophy. Detracts from the other player's RP.

Viewing it as IC, and forcing that on other roleplayers in space: The same as the above, except it doesn't remove anything from that player's RP. It ADDS to it, in fact, by introducing RP in yet another dimension, instead of merely in chat. Sure, the player may not want it, but it's still part of the game the player is subscribing to. Doesn't detract from either character's RP, but it does introduce an element of risk into the other player's virtual life. However, that risk is there every time you undock, anyway. Hell, it may not even add RP to it. Just risk, which is an inherent game-mechanic in Eve, no matter where you are or even if you're in the newb corp. (I love suiciding newb-corp haulers and steal their shit, but that's another subject entirely). So it either adds something, or at the very least, doesn't detract anything from that person's RP.

As far as I can see it, one detracts from another player's RP. The other adds to the other player's RP. And it is also the most fair because it's the least limiting on both players. The OoC player has access to every single tool the 'space is IC' player has. Ships. Guns. Intel. Locators. ISK to hire Mercs. So on and so forth. The IC player doesn't have any advantages over the other player. All this does is level the playing field until both have access to the exact same mechanics.

So yeah, kindergarten mentality, but it's the most fair as I see it. And thus, it's the most 'right' way to do it. And that's even disregarding the fact that it's also the only one of the options which actually says 'yeah, we both get to play the game'. The other option says 'I get to the play the game, but I'm stopping you from playing yours. Nyer.'. Okay, maybe not nyer, but yeah. You get my point.

[Casiella]

I have a simple approach.

It's a roleplaying game. When I'm gaming, I'm roleplaying. What I do IG is IC, and if you don't like it, you can take it as OOC if you like. But I'm still doing it, and I'm not going to stop my gameplay (within the rules established by CCP) because you might not like the results. That goes both ways, of course: I don't get to complain that the Goons shouldn't have effectively destroyed New Eden Research because I joined it for IC reasons and they acted OOC.

[Lillith Blackheart]

The question still remains... what makes viewing IC space as any more "right" than viewing it as OOC?

I feel that this was answered in my second post above. If you do not believe that I answered this clearly, please respond to my post explaining why you feel it does not resolve your question so that I may go from there.

Edit: Hrm. Better response: This question isn't relevant, because in the question is the belief that one or the other "viewpoint" is "better" or "more right". However that isn't really what is in question here. What is in question here isn't whether Mizh was "right" to think that she can wardec the person or the person to believe she was "right" to think that she should be able to do whatever she wants IC in channels with no "in space" response. The question is which expectation is reasonable and which expectation is unreasonable, as this allows for both beliefs of ic v ooc to be equally valid. I suggest it is unreasonable in a game like EVE to run a corporation of any sort and think you are going to be free from having someone piss in your cheerios.

[Ulphus]

I agree with Lilith. This is Eve. You don't need to deserve it to be war-decced. It isn't relevant whether space is IC or not. War-decs happen OOC as well.

The question still remains... what makes viewing IC space as any more "right" than viewing it as OOC?

It seems that the person this originally applied to wants to have what happens in space not be affected by what happens in RP channels, and presumably what happens in RP not affected by what happens in Space?

Does it seem reasonable to you that I could esplode your ship in the afternoon, and RP with you in a bar later that night without there being any effect on the RP? Even if only chagrin on your part at being esploded or congratulations on a tough contest? Would the "target player"? If not, then the target player can hardly complain if the effect runs in the other direction as well, neh?

[lallara zhuul]

Whenever you are using game mechanics to force your playstyle on others you are telling them that their playstyle is wrong.

Same applies to RP.